Did Jesus Die For The Entire World ?

Interesting. Those parts of scripture are still separately saying that you have to accept Jesus Christ or you will go to hell forever, hell being unquenchable eternal fire. There's no scripture that says it clearly in one piece "If you don't accept Jesus you will burn in hell forever". Thus why there are universalists. Some people, I think, unless it is clearly all in one chunk together, scripturally, will find ways to say, "no everyone will be saved".

I think if there is a God and Jesus is his Son, well why would everyone be saved? It's a nice idea but not realistic. If you read that Bible it doesn't sound like everyone is going to be saved just because Jesus died for our sins. God is not going to let us get away with it that easy. Either you believe or not...you buy into the whole thing or not. You are going to have to accept Jesus as your personal savior...why wouldn't you before you die? It's called making a decision. Life is ugly enough, why wouldn't the afterlife be ugly in that not everybody goes to heaven? I don't think if God and the whole thing exists, that everyone is going. It makes zero sense.

Okay I'm usually a bleeding heart but above I just spoke the truth. From the heart and the mind. Forgive me but I did. And I have not yet made up my mind whether or not I am a believer. I often love this Jesus guy alot though. And I think he loves me too...even when I don't believe in him. But his Dad is the one...who is probably angry...never mind I changed my mind we are all going to Heaven.

Edited on October 8, 2009 at 11:38 PM Permalink

Why do I feel Jesus loves me even when I doubt he exists then? We are all going to Heaven Di.

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I know I can believe Jesus is the Messiah and go to hell. It's not everyone the bible says that says Lord Lord who will enter into his presence. That is what the scripture says they will say. And he will say, sorry I never knew you.

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LOL

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Don't anyone listen to me...I'm mixed up!

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Mishamay wrote:Don't anyone listen to me...I'm mixed up!

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I just love this Jesus fella...it's hard to describe loving someone and feeling them love you back...who is invisible!

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i know i have more than a few times been led, by some comments on the beliefs threads, to declare, "jeebus h. christ, lord oh lord, my frickin' god" and i don't think that qualifies me to go to heben, so i think i can validate brenda's declaration.

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Mishamay wrote:I just love this Jesus fella...it's hard to describe loving someone and feeling them love you back...who is invisible!

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However I don't want to be a Christian...phoooey on that! They give Jesus a bad name!

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I just used that as an example to show not all will be saved. Even if they proclaim it, Jesus will have the last word. I think IMO he means those who say it but act like he's not there at all. Don't live like they believe it. Trample all over it, no relationship, no prayers....stuff like that there....it don't however stop his love for you....or anyone...He sends the most unusual kinds of help for people if they just relized it..:)

Edited on October 8, 2009 at 11:49 PM Permalink

snackstix wrote:

Mishamay wrote:I just love this Jesus fella...it's hard to describe loving someone and feeling them love you back...who is invisible!

But the good news is he came to seek and save that which is LOST. You have to be lost to be found right? When you accept him, you aren't lost anymore but how can one learn about him without a Bible to teach him? And a good solid foundation to stand on? Christ is my foundation, it's solid. IMHO

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i think that the threats of violence that are attributed to christ by the bible reveal his true nature. he uses the promise of eternal damnation, an idea which never occurred in the old testament and which does not exist in judaism to this day, to coerce others into accepting his proclamations of himself and his authority. why was there no body of religious teachers at the time of christ that advocated or supported his proposition of an eternal lake of fire into which gentiles and apostate jews would be cast?

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Mishamay wrote:

snackstix wrote:

Mishamay wrote:I just love this Jesus fella...it's hard to describe loving someone and feeling them love you back...who is invisible!

But the good news is he came to seek and save that which is LOST. You have to be lost to be found right? When you accept him, you aren't lost anymore but how can one learn about him without a Bible to teach him? And a good solid foundation to stand on? Christ is my foundation, it's solid. IMHO

It's not hard to accept Jesus! He's very loving and he is there for more than LOST people...he's there for happy people too who could get LOST. He's salvation I guess.

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trusting the word of the bible to save me from the wrath of god is to me like trusting the flotation of an anvil to save me from drowning.

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Pamp.....Jesus healed the ear of the solider Peter cut off. You can't blame everything on God. geeze lol

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LadyDi821 wrote:

Mishamay wrote:However I don't want to be a Christian...phoooey on that! They give Jesus a bad name!

What do you mean Pam that Christians gave Jesus a bad name?

It has made some people lose their faith actually.

Edited on October 8, 2009 at 11:53 PM Permalink

pamplemus wrote:i think that the threats of violence that are attributed to christ by the bible reveal his true nature. he uses the promise of eternal damnation, an idea which never occurred in the old testament and which does not exist in judaism to this day, to coerce others into accepting his proclamations of himself and his authority. why was there no body of religious teachers at the time of christ that advocated or supported his proposition of an eternal lake of fire into which gentiles and apostate jews would be cast?

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judaism never taught any idea remotely approximating the idea that j.c. brought. if he existed at all, which is unproven, and if he were a rabbi, which is even less proven, then for him to teach such ideas was heretical and the jews had every legal right to stone him. oddly enough, the new testament theology condemns the orthodox jews for trying to follow the law that god gave them. in the old testament the orthodox jews were condemned for tolerating false prophets and teachers and sent into babylonian captivity. jehovah is more than a little schizo-affective... he punishes you for following and for disobeying the laws he sends for you to follow, or not follow... i'm getting confused here...

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Mishamay wrote:

pamplemus wrote:i think that the threats of violence that are attributed to christ by the bible reveal his true nature. he uses the promise of eternal damnation, an idea which never occurred in the old testament and which does not exist in judaism to this day, to coerce others into accepting his proclamations of himself and his authority. why was there no body of religious teachers at the time of christ that advocated or supported his proposition of an eternal lake of fire into which gentiles and apostate jews would be cast?

Jews will be saved...not their fault they are Jewish...Jesus is a Jew

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pamplemus wrote:trusting the word of the bible to save me from the wrath of god is to me like trusting the flotation of an anvil to save me from drowning.

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LadyDi821 wrote:

Mishamay wrote:

pamplemus wrote:i think that the threats of violence that are attributed to christ by the bible reveal his true nature. he uses the promise of eternal damnation, an idea which never occurred in the old testament and which does not exist in judaism to this day, to coerce others into accepting his proclamations of himself and his authority. why was there no body of religious teachers at the time of christ that advocated or supported his proposition of an eternal lake of fire into which gentiles and apostate jews would be cast?

Jews will be saved...not their fault they are Jewish...Jesus is a Jew

There are many Jewish believers more so than you know.. Not just here but in Israel as well..

The Jews are Gods chosen .. The apple of his eye..

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good grief......

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well pam, i think that to like the jesus as portrayed in the bible, is more than a little difficult. he invents the idea of hell and eternal torture for those that don't follow his other teachings. it's like if i teach a whole new set of mathematical rules that do not conform to any reality at all and then declare that anyone that does not follow my system is damned. if the old testament teachings of the spirit world and the afterlife are true then the new testament teachings cannot be true because they do not coincide. it's like teaching that there is one god and that there is a pantheon. both ideas may be false, but both cannot be true for they are mutually exclusive.

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pamplemus wrote:judaism never taught any idea remotely approximating the idea that j.c. brought. if he existed at all, which is unproven, and if he were a rabbi, which is even less proven, then for him to teach such ideas was heretical and the jews had every legal right to stone him. oddly enough, the new testament theology condemns the orthodox jews for trying to follow the law that god gave them. in the old testament the orthodox jews were condemned for tolerating false prophets and teachers and sent into babylonian captivity. jehovah is more than a little schizo-affective... he punishes you for following and for disobeying the laws he sends for you to follow, or not follow... i'm getting confused here...

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LadyDi821 wrote:

Mishamay wrote:

LadyDi821 wrote:

Mishamay wrote:However I don't want to be a Christian...phoooey on that! They give Jesus a bad name!

What do you mean Pam that Christians gave Jesus a bad name?

I was thinkin of that song by Bon Jovi "you give Love a Bad Name"...certainly not ALL Christians give Jesus a bad name but lately I'm hearing alot about this bishop in the local news who is a pedophile and it is disappointing knowing Christians who are high ranking men of God do things like that when they are supposed to be a light to others. :(

It has made some people lose their faith actually.

Pam the men who did this horrible things to children do not represent all believers. We know why these men hid out in churches... And to the men who protected them .. Or the church body was also wrong.

People will not lose faith over this. More so kids may have lost themselves.

But again Jesus is here for those who believe why he came .. And for who he came.. Not all will enter the kingdom of heaven if they believe this they are discounting God' word

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Tomorrow or Saturday. Too tired for this tonight. Don't worry, I have plenty to say. But my answer will probably take about three separate posts and I have two teenage sons going to homecoming dance tomorrow.

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i did not believe in universalism at the time. if i were to go back now and review the torah and old testament then i would be a universalist. if i went to the teachings of christ and considered them authoritative i would be a pessimist, for christ consigns the vast majority of man to eternal damnation. in judaism there is the likelihood of eventual post mortem purification, an idea which is consistent with the catholic idea of purgatory. there are also teachings in the kabbalah which suggest the idea of reincarnation, again also inconsistent with the idea in the new testament of "it is appointed to man once to die, and then the judgement" and eternal bliss or everlasting torment. judaism has always been inconsistent with christianity, which is why it seems so odd that christians believe they are compatible. it's like saying that islam sprang out of hinduism, again an incongruous idea.

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Mishamay wrote:

pamplemus wrote:judaism never taught any idea remotely approximating the idea that j.c. brought. if he existed at all, which is unproven, and if he were a rabbi, which is even less proven, then for him to teach such ideas was heretical and the jews had every legal right to stone him. oddly enough, the new testament theology condemns the orthodox jews for trying to follow the law that god gave them. in the old testament the orthodox jews were condemned for tolerating false prophets and teachers and sent into babylonian captivity. jehovah is more than a little schizo-affective... he punishes you for following and for disobeying the laws he sends for you to follow, or not follow... i'm getting confused here...

Like Di said the Jews are God's chosen...Jesus was sent to save the rest of us really. The New Testament doesn't apply to Jews ;) So the way to God for them is not through Jesus...it's through God himself.

Edited on October 9, 2009 at 12:10 AM Permalink

LadyDi821 wrote:It becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

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And by the way, your first paragraph is really fun. You KNOW you have at least one, and probably about three to five believers here who hold this to be true.

Also, I won't be "copy and pasting" in my reply. This is needed.

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pamplemus wrote:

Mishamay wrote:

pamplemus wrote:i think that the threats of violence that are attributed to christ by the bible reveal his true nature. he uses the promise of eternal damnation, an idea which never occurred in the old testament and which does not exist in judaism to this day, to coerce others into accepting his proclamations of himself and his authority. why was there no body of religious teachers at the time of christ that advocated or supported his proposition of an eternal lake of fire into which gentiles and apostate jews would be cast?

Jews will be saved...not their fault they are Jewish...Jesus is a Jew

you mean like it's not black people's fault they are black or asians fault that they are asian? that's magnanimous.

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^^haha

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LadyDi821 wrote:

Mishamay wrote:

pamplemus wrote:judaism never taught any idea remotely approximating the idea that j.c. brought. if he existed at all, which is unproven, and if he were a rabbi, which is even less proven, then for him to teach such ideas was heretical and the jews had every legal right to stone him. oddly enough, the new testament theology condemns the orthodox jews for trying to follow the law that god gave them. in the old testament the orthodox jews were condemned for tolerating false prophets and teachers and sent into babylonian captivity. jehovah is more than a little schizo-affective... he punishes you for following and for disobeying the laws he sends for you to follow, or not follow... i'm getting confused here...

Like Di said the Jews are God's chosen...Jesus was sent to save the rest of us really. The New Testament doesn't apply to Jews ;) So the way to God for them is not through Jesus...it's through God himself.

No not exactly Pam.. Although the Jews are Gods chosen they too must believe that the only way to the Father is through Jesus.. And as I said there are more Jewish believers than you would imagine

The Jews who don't believe that Jesus is their Messiah are still living under the old laws.; They do not recognize the NT at all.

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orthodox jews who follow the original teachings of their ancestors could never "like jesus a little" for his teachings are totally contrary to the revealed word of their god in their holy scripture. it's sort of like asking normally socialized people to just "like charles manson a little" and they will gradually be able to adopt and conform to his view of the world. why would anyone choose that? why would jews choose to reject their religion, which rests on at least a semblance of historical validity, in favor of christianity which has no objective historical basis at all???

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LadyDi821 wrote:

Mishamay wrote:

pamplemus wrote:judaism never taught any idea remotely approximating the idea that j.c. brought. if he existed at all, which is unproven, and if he were a rabbi, which is even less proven, then for him to teach such ideas was heretical and the jews had every legal right to stone him. oddly enough, the new testament theology condemns the orthodox jews for trying to follow the law that god gave them. in the old testament the orthodox jews were condemned for tolerating false prophets and teachers and sent into babylonian captivity. jehovah is more than a little schizo-affective... he punishes you for following and for disobeying the laws he sends for you to follow, or not follow... i'm getting confused here...

Like Di said the Jews are God's chosen...Jesus was sent to save the rest of us really. The New Testament doesn't apply to Jews ;) So the way to God for them is not through Jesus...it's through God himself.

No not exactly Pam.. Although the Jews are Gods chosen they too must believe that the only way to the Father is through Jesus.. And as I said there are more Jewish believers than you would imagine

The Jews who don't believe that Jesus is their Messiah are still living under the old laws.; They do not recognize the NT at all.

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Mishamay wrote:

pamplemus wrote:

Mishamay wrote:

pamplemus wrote:i think that the threats of violence that are attributed to christ by the bible reveal his true nature. he uses the promise of eternal damnation, an idea which never occurred in the old testament and which does not exist in judaism to this day, to coerce others into accepting his proclamations of himself and his authority. why was there no body of religious teachers at the time of christ that advocated or supported his proposition of an eternal lake of fire into which gentiles and apostate jews would be cast?

Jews will be saved...not their fault they are Jewish...Jesus is a Jew

you mean like it's not black people's fault they are black or asians fault that they are asian? that's magnanimous.

Just like it's not your fault you're so smokin' hawt you steam up all the threads all the time (or my fault I'm a pathological liar)

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LadyDi821 wrote:
But what they believe doesn't jive with scripture. They only want to believe in a loving God not one who condemns.. It is actually a nice deal if it were true that no matter what we are all going to heaven. But scripture says differently ..They twist scripture in the most demeaning way to the Lord.

Tell me Di, how is believing that God loves the whole world and will bring us all to salvation "most demeaning" to the Lord?

I actually think that believing that God created a plan where vast majority are nothing but trash to live in torment for the rest of eternity because they didn't understand a certain belief on earth is a hell of a lot more demeaning to the lord.

And to have the gall and the incompetence of mind to declare that such a God who would carry this out is "loving" is, well, irrational.

Edited on October 9, 2009 at 12:22 AM Permalink