Mormons are Christians, too.

Monique wrote:I wonder how many serial killers are atheists?

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Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr.
(1943-1975)
highjacker

He was a Vietnam veteran, a helicopter pilot, and a capable skydiver. He was 29 years old. He was a police science major at Brigham Young University, and he was having serious financial problems. On April 7, 1972, he hijacked United Airlines Flight 855, a Boeing 727 en route from Newark, New Jersey, to Los Angeles, California, with 85 passengers and a crew of six, after their stopover in Denver, Colorado. Approximately 20 minutes after takeoff, at 5:18 p.m., he was observed in his seat holding a hand grenade. When an off-duty pilot attempted to asses the situation, he pulled out a handgun and an envelope with instructions. He demanded $500,000 in cash and four parachutes. The crew complied with his demand and the passengers were released in San Francisco. He then instructed the crew to fly to Utah, and he bailed out over Provo. He was arrested two days later. He was tried, convicted and sentences to 45 years in prison.

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Brian David "Emmanuel" Mitchell
kidnapper

In 2002, Mitchell was a homeless man who worked a few days for a man named Ed Smart. One night he returned to the Smart home and kidnapped fourteen-year-old Elizabeth from her bedroom. Elizabeth's sister witnessed the crime and identified the kidnapper. Still it took nine months to find Elizabeth and return her to her family. Mitchell was scheduled to stand trial in Feb 2005, but repeated outbursts in court have made it impossible. Multiple competency hearings have failed to resolve the question.

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oh me oh my i found this....Serial Killer Jeffrey Dahmer Blames Atheism for his Crimes ..... The title of the video is, "What If Serial Killer Jeffrey Dahmer Had ...

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Monique wrote:I wonder how many serial killers are atheists?

i am no apologist for atheist criminals, and i never claimed to be. i will be the first to state that there are probably as many serial killers and rapists and jaywalkers that are nondeists as there are murderers and bigamists that are christians. that is no grand endorsement of religion. i think that it is obvious from ari posting the hall of fame that her insinuation is that somehow being famous validates religion as true or pristine or healthy. my posting of evil people that are/were engaged in religion just shows that the opposite argument is just as valid and at the same time just as pointless. i don't think that people are necessarily made better or worse by religion, though i am inclined towards believing the latter just through the lesson of history. religionists however, seem unwilling to be as charitable toward nondeists and give them the benefit of belief in their good character.

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okay snacks, shall i go find a list of the people that god messages from god to kill the indians, or protestants, or their families, or their classmates, or...

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okay brenda, there are criminals that are atheists. there are also vegans that are criminals, and hindus, and muslims and quakers. what does that prove?

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this is the same lame argument that things that are coincidental are somehow related in a causative manner. religion probably causes people to do things that are unsavory in the name of god. i do not think that people do evil acts in the name of atheism. i do not know that i have heard anyone institute a genocidal pogrom for the glory of atheism.

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I don't care what you do, it is useless to try for any dialogue, for your going to keep putting everybody on trial, along with their beliefs, and that's inexcusable. Nothing ever satisfies your desire to hurt , embarrass or humiliate, and put unnecessary burdens on people's shoulders. You accuse me and others of belittling and not having love in our hearts, which there is nothing shining from your heart, which I can agree though and understand how others can not win an argument with someone who thinks they are so above everyone else. It kinda makes one wonder what the use in trying is. :(

Edited on March 30, 2009 at 5:30 PM Permalink

okay snacks. you lose and i win. where is my prize?

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http://likastarr.com/mormons-exposed-hot-boy-calendar

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pamplemus wrote:this is the same lame argument that things that are coincidental are somehow related in a causative manner. religion probably causes people to do things that are unsavory in the name of god. i do not think that people do evil acts in the name of atheism. i do not know that i have heard anyone institute a genocidal pogrom for the glory of atheism.

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There will be good and bad people in all denominations/faiths/atheistisms (is that a word? lol)/agonostics etc...

We are all imperfect, some strive for good, some take pleasure in doing bad..some just couldn't care one way or the other

None of us can/should judge the other, although human nature being as it is, means we will.

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Mandy wrote:There will be good and bad people in all denominations/faiths/atheistisms (is that a word? lol)/agonostics etc...

We are all imperfect, some strive for good, some take pleasure in doing bad..some just couldn't care one way or the other

None of us can/should judge the other, although human nature being as it is, means we will.

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ha, calling atheists militant. from the people who gave you the inquisition and the crusades!!!

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allow me to be more honest than religionists, (not a difficult feat in general) by stating that there are indeed militant people that are atheists. there are also fat people that are atheists, and humanitarians, and murderers, and nobel prize winners, and pedophiles, and silver star medalists, and drug addicts, and physicians. again, coexistence does not prove causation.

Edited on March 30, 2009 at 6:03 PM Permalink

pamplemus wrote:

Monique wrote:I wonder how many serial killers are atheists?

i am no apologist for atheist criminals, and i never claimed to be. i will be the first to state that there are probably as many serial killers and rapists and jaywalkers that are nondeists as there are murderers and bigamists that are christians. that is no grand endorsement of religion. i think that it is obvious from ari posting the hall of fame that her insinuation is that somehow being famous validates religion as true or pristine or healthy. my posting of evil people that are/were engaged in religion just shows that the opposite argument is just as valid and at the same time just as pointless. i don't think that people are necessarily made better or worse by religion, though i am inclined towards believing the latter just through the lesson of history. religionists however, seem unwilling to be as charitable toward nondeists and give them the benefit of belief in their good character.

I said nothing about you at all Pample. Neither did I say that nondiests were better or worse than diests. I simply wondered at the statistics.

I also wonder how many of those lovely people you listed above that claim Mormonism as their religion, were practicing Mormons.

The IRA claim to be Catholic.

The middle Eastern Terrorists claim Islam.

Yet their actions strongly suggest they know nothing of the religion they claim to be a part of.

I wonder about a lot of things.

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pamplemus wrote:ha, calling atheists militant. from the people who gave you the inquisition and the crusades!!!

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I agree with you Cherie

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I will support you in your thread title statement Ari.

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It's nice to know that we can agree from time to time, Pample. :)

Hi Deb and Brenda. Hope the sun is shining where you are.

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Is Mormonism Christian?

"Is Mormonism Christian?" is a very important question. The answer is equally important and simple. No. Mormonism is not Christian.

If you are a Mormon, please realize that CARM is not trying to attack you, your character, or the sincerity of your belief. If you are a non-Mormon looking into Mormonism, or if you are a Christian who is simply researching Mormonism, then this paper should be of help to you.

The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (that there is only one God, Jesus is God in flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, and Jesus rose from the dead physically, the gospel being the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus), Mormonism denies three of them: how many gods there are, the person of Jesus, and His work of salvation.

Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation. It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God’s spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8). This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1;16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is god in flesh, it teaches that he is "a" god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5). See Trinity for a correct discussion of what the Trinity is.

Because Mormonism denies the biblical truth of who God is, who Jesus is, how forgiveness of sins is attained, and what the gospel is, the Mormon is not Christian -- in spite of all his claims that he is.

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Mormonism teaches

Mormon theology teaches that god is only one of countless gods, that he used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Second was Satan, and then we all followed. But, the Bible says that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5), that God has eternally been God (Psalm 90:2) -- which means he was never a man on another planet. Since the Bible denies the existence of other gods (and goddesses), the idea that Jesus is the product of a god and goddess couple is rejected. The Bible tells us that Jesus The Jesus of Mormonism is definitely not the same Jesus of the Bible. Therefore, faith in the Mormon Jesus, is faith misplaced because the Mormon Jesus doesn't exist.

Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross itself (and receiving it by faith) is not sufficient to bring forgiveness of sins. It teaches that the forgiveness of sins is obtained though a cooperative effort with God; that is, we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness. Consider James Talmage, a very important Mormon figure who said, "The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil," (Articles, p. 432), and "Hence the justice of the scriptural doctrine that salvation comes to the individual only through obedience," (Articles, p. 81). This contradicts the biblical doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9) and the doctrine that works are not part of our salvation but a result of them (Rom. 4:5, James 2:14-18).
To further confuse the matter, Mormonism further states that salvation is twofold. It maintains that salvation is both forgiveness of sins and universal resurrection. So when a Mormon speaks of salvation by grace, he is usually referring to universal resurrection. But the Bible speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not simple universal resurrection. Where Mormonism states that forgiveness of sins is not by faith alone, the Bible does teaches it is by faith alone. Which is correct? Obviously, it is the Bible.

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Mormonism and the Bible

In order to justify its aberrant theology, Mormonism, has undermined the authority and trustworthiness of the Bible. The 8th article of faith from the Mormon Church states, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." This means that when the Bible contradicts Mormonism, the Bible isn't trustworthy.

The interesting thing is that Joseph Smith allegedly corrected the Bible in what is called The Inspired Version, though it is not used by the LDS church. Though they claim they trust the Bible, in reality they do not. They use Mormon presuppositions to interpret it instead of letting it speak for itself. For example, where the Bible says there are no other gods in the universe (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8), they interpret it to mean "no other gods of this world" - which is not what those verses say. They do not trust the Bible and they often state that the Bible is not translated correctly.
Conclusion

Why is Mormonism a non Christian religion? It is not Christian because it denies that there is only one God, denies the true Gospel, adds works to salvation, denies that Jesus is the uncreated creator, distorts the biblical teaching of the atonement, and undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible.

CARM does not deny that Mormons are good people, that they worship "a" god, that they share common words with Christians, that they help their people, and that they do many good things. But that isn't what makes someone Christian. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23, " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (NKJV). Becoming a Christian does not mean belonging to a church, doing good things, or simply believing in God. Being a Christian means that you have trusted in the true God for salvation, in the True Jesus -- not the brother of the devil, not the god of Mormonism, not the gospel of Mormonism. Mormonism is false and cannot save anyone.

CARM

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Mormons are just as Christian as JW's!!! Judge not!!!

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Arizonagal wrote:'nuf said.

Only on the Planet Kolob

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I think it's kobol

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pamplemus wrote:Mormons are just as Christian as JW's!!! Judge not!!!

I agree and furthermore: just as christians as christians.

Unless, as I said on the Jehova's thread, we wanna stick by a very picky definition that will sieve out many other christians as well..

Slinger: Remember that other christians can also have judgemental slingers, that exclude you. You wanna judge by their standard, then it's your choice.

Edited on March 30, 2009 at 7:48 PM Permalink

At least it was on the Mormon propaganda show Battlestar Galactica

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pamplemus wrote:At least it was on the Mormon propaganda show Battlestar Galactica

LOL

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That show actually is based on Mormon theology

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robdale wrote:

pamplemus wrote:Mormons are just as Christian as JW's!!! Judge not!!!

I agree and furthermore: just as christians as christians.

Unless, as I said on the Jehova's thread, we wanna stick by a very picky definition that will sieve out many other christians as well..

Slinger: Remember that other christians can also have judgemental slingers, that exclude you. You wanna judge by their standard, then it's your choice.

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1. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8-9, NIV).
1. Verses 8 and 9 here in Galatians are a self declarative statement that you must believe the gospel. The gospel message which in its entirety is that Jesus is God in flesh, who died for sins, rose from the dead, and freely gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe.
2. Furthermore, it would not be possible to present the gospel properly without declaring that Jesus is God in flesh per John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8.
2. 1 Cor. 15:1-4 defines what the gospel is: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (NIV).
1. Within these verses are the essentials: Christ is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9); Salvation is received by faith (John 1:12; Rom. 10:9-10), therefore it is by grace; and the resurrection is mentioned in verse 4. Therefore, this gospel message automatically includes the essentials.

Let the Mormon or the JW freely confess that Jesus is Very God in flesh then we will be getting somewhere

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I thought god was a spirit and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

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What a nice religion. You get excommunicated for sin. Tough crowd.

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How about littering? Farting in public? Voting for a liberal?

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...searching...As I can't recall God ever excommunicating someone..if someone else could find that in the bible please do.

Edited on March 31, 2009 at 4:07 PM Permalink

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

I believe this is what is happening. I would like to say that I take no offense at anyone here and pray for forgiveness from Anyone in these belief forums that I may have offended, because it is not Christian to hold offenses in your heart or to not forgive. Forgiveness is what Christ Jesus came for and if anyone does not have the heart of Jesus and can forgive his brothers or sisters or friends, then Jesus WILL not forgive us. So, I will say I do not know everything, I will never know everything, but I know the love of God and his forgiveness is sure and his love unconditional. May you all have a great day.....and God bless you.

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pamplemus wrote:yet more famous mormons...

Ted Bundy

He was attractive, smart, and had a future in politics. He was also one of the most prolific serial killers in U.S. history. Ted Bundy screamed his innocence until his death in the electric chair became imminent, then he tried to use his victims one more time to keep himself alive. His plan failed and the world got a glimpse of the true evil inside him. In late 1974 Bundy moved from Seattle to Salt Lake City, where he attended law school and became a Mormon convert.

Oh for the love of gawd...this guy joined whatever religion was convenient so he could stalk the women involved and then murder them!

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what other religions did he join to stalk wimmin?

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Monique wrote:

Arizonagal wrote:Read the following, Ami...this is what I believe:

ARTICLES OF FAITH

Thirteen statements, written by the Prophet Joseph Smith, outlining some of the basic teachings and ordinances of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The basic beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are summed up in 13 simple statements penned by Joseph Smith as a response to frequent queries on the teachings and doctrines of the Church. These statements are now known as the Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

They are:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon this the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
_____________________________________________________________________

These beliefs all seem to add up to those of most Christian religions. Not all of these beliefs, but most.

Taking the basic definition tho.. a Christian is simply defined as "believing in Jesus as the son of God and the worshiping of Him as such".

I wonder why singling out and attacking a particular religion is so prominent on these boards.

And why it is allowed.

Cherie, I think there has to be a balance between free speech and examining different belief systems and questioning them. If a rule is made that one religion is to be protected from criticism, then every other belief system would then also have to be protected the same way, and there would be no room for criticism about any belief system.

However, I don't know why Mormonism has been singled out as of late on these boards.

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pamplemus wrote:what other religions did he join to stalk wimmin?

Ted Bundy was a methodist Christian Youth leader in Seattle/Tacoma where he stalked young women to get close to them.

When he moved to Utah, he stalked Mormon girls and feigned interest in the church so he could get close to them.

He wasn't Mormon at birth, and obviously wasn't interested in the Mormons until he moved to Utah, where his interests were perverse.

^^that's copied from Yahoo answers

I'm also reading a novel on the moron called "The Stranger beside me"

Edited on March 31, 2009 at 6:26 PM Permalink

and just what is wrong with perverse interests? are you mocking my perverse interests? when did god step down from the throne and crown you deity of the day? just because my interests are not mainstream does not mean that they are necessarily perverse. why can't we just call them "eclectic" and live and let live?

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Perves are christians too!!! Judge not lest ye be judged!!!

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