Could science dispell religious mythology once and for all?
Listed in the Beliefs category.
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Posted by The_Holy_Mole on July 1, 2008 at 2:41 PM
In a few months, the Large Hadron Collider at Cern will be switched on
Heres the brief specs...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jun/30/cern.particlephysics2
It seeks to replicate the early stages of the big bang and may yield the greatest advance in human understanding of our creation. It will produce particles as yet unseen by humankind and seeks to explain the very nature of matter.
Some have leapt into fear mode, claiming it's playing God and will destroy us all. if you are one of these people, take a breath and read this...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jun/30/cern.particlephysics1
As one who rejects the standard models of religion, i wondered whether scientific proof could lay to rest creationist theories once and for all?
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Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 1, 2008 at 3:45 PM
I doubt it :)
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Reply by The_Holy_Mole on July 1, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Lol - was hoping for a bit more discussion than that!
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Reply by StormshaedowGOLD on July 1, 2008 at 5:47 PM
Why do people (on both sides...) believe that it's either Creationism or Science?
The only place I can see where Creationism and "Science" disagree is Macro Evolution and Abiogenesis. Maybe the age of the earth depending on who you talk to and from what perspective...
Other than that I'm not familiar with other breaks between the Bible and Science...
The above is MONSHO... =)
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Reply by AlyKatGOLD on July 1, 2008 at 5:57 PM
Religion is not in the realm of science because God is untestable. It will remain a theory, however, there are things in the bible (ie: age of the earth to name one) that have been dispoven, but that will not change the mind of someone who believes the bible to be the word of God.
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Reply by scarlettohallGOLD on July 1, 2008 at 8:46 PM
I haven't read the articles because to me if science proves something then it is a fact..BUT..also..to me...no matter how it all happened, it was still God that put everything in motion. Just my opinion.
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Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 2, 2008 at 1:53 AM
Religious Mythology?
pffft...
lean a little more to the left.
Science and God go hand in hand.
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Reply by The_Holy_Mole on July 2, 2008 at 9:47 AM
Don't get me wrong - i have belief in God. I just believe no-one has got it right yet and therefore, for me, existing religions teach mythology.
I agree with you that science and God go hand in hand; I just wonder if those who follow existing dogma would be able to adjust their views if experiments such as the one at Cern turn out information that lead to a true understanding of our existence.
For example, my own personal theory is that God tried to replicate leading to the big bang, the creation of time and our universe (that our universe is created in his image rather than God being a bearded bloke in the sky). Our lives represent the infinite thoughts of God; therefore if you want a benevolent God then act that way towards others (this is a simplistic version obviously - i could bang on about this for hours)
The LHC is replicating some of those early billionths of a second following the big bang and aims to produce those particles to study the nature of matter and therefore ourselves. Fascinating work with infinite possibilities.
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Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 2, 2008 at 10:24 PM
the only way to know God's character is by reading His Word. Now the question lies , what book is the right book?
that is something only the human spirit can determine and discern.
I don't think God has a beard, if I were God I would do away with that bothersome facial hair completely hehe.
I don't believe we have it right either but if we did we would then have nothing to search for.
I only know from my own life what is truth and I know what I have personally experienced and my purpose here.
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Reply by PlusSizeParisHiltonGOLD on July 2, 2008 at 10:51 PM
PlusSizeParisHilton going to the club tonightI am very interested in this LHC thing...I am going to do more research on it. At first, when I was reading the article I was very afraid...I didn't think it was fair that whoever was making this thing was making a decision for the whole world - death - but it seems like nothing is really going to happen if they turn it on.
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Reply by deedeesingGOLD on July 2, 2008 at 11:57 PM
deedeesing is tryin to work with stereo sound & gettin in a few listens too!Shoot!! I thought there were some scientific things already in the Bible and if anyone would care to point them out.....it would be grreatly appreciated. I don't have a Bible handy where I am now. Thanks!
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Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 3, 2008 at 12:04 AM
very careful to discern whatever anyone (myself included) tells you.
I am not sure if you are interested in books that correlated the Bible with mathematical and scientific equations or if you're just wanting verses in the Bible that back up Science.
???
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Reply by deedeesingGOLD on July 3, 2008 at 10:21 PM
deedeesing is tryin to work with stereo sound & gettin in a few listens too!Both would be okay. A little of both. No matter. I just remember there are verses that explains scientific matter already etc. ;o)
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Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 4, 2008 at 11:31 AM
I am not sure how specific the verses are but I do love the one in Romans that says
Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
not about science to the natural man but the spiritual man understands this verse completely.
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Reply by captain_skeptical on July 4, 2008 at 8:21 PM
I think that even if we understood everything in the history of the universe to it's very beginnings there would still be people who would either attribute a first cause to a designer (understandable though I see no reason to do so) or they will disregard what we understand in order to hold onto literal interpretations of creation myths (less understandable in my view). We can already see this in people who hold more literal interpretations of Genesis dismissing what we understand about evolution.
Edited on July 4, 2008 at 8:22 PM Quote
Reply by captain_skeptical on July 4, 2008 at 8:25 PM
I for one do not see the divine nature of a creator in the universe, clearly or otherwise. I think in order to see it as clearly described in Romans you need to presuppose a creator and that of course makes one succeptable to the fallacy of confirmation bias.
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Reply by Arizonagal on July 4, 2008 at 8:26 PM
God created science. :)
And God dispells scientific myths.
Edited on July 4, 2008 at 8:27 PM Quote
Reply by captain_skeptical on July 4, 2008 at 8:36 PM
In my experience it has been scientists who dispel "scientific myths", if by myths here you mean instances where science has been wrong.
I am pretty sure that it was also men who devised the scientific method in order to try to understand the natural world, not a god.
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Reply by Arizonagal on July 4, 2008 at 8:56 PM
God created this world...and other worlds...and the inhabitants thereof.
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Reply by captain_skeptical on July 5, 2008 at 12:57 AM
in your opinion.
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Reply by Arizonagal on July 5, 2008 at 2:57 AM
Nope. It's a fact.
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Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 5, 2008 at 3:09 AM
Capt,
What do you live for? what is life for, to live and to die? if so... then why live?
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Reply by sinzn0more on July 5, 2008 at 3:32 AM
I don't believe in science.... So it must not exist..LOL
We as Humans want an answer for everything. We want to prove this and disprove that. For example, we find skeletal remains of giant animals and try to figure out what caused their demise. Was it an ice age? Perhaps they were just too big to get on the boat. Because all the tissue has decayed drowning can't be proven or disprove. As time goes, we become smarter than the generations before us, or so we think.
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Reply by Arizonagal on July 5, 2008 at 3:38 AM
God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs...
Dinosaurs eat man. Woman inherits the earth...
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Reply by NovellaNEWS-TEAM on July 5, 2008 at 6:59 AM
Novella .................................................................LOL ARI!!!
C'Mon....
You're intelligent enough to know Facts require 'proof'.
No one really knows how the world was "created" ...
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Reply by captain_skeptical on July 5, 2008 at 11:18 AM
This is strange. I can't tell if you are pro science, pro religion, ot against both.
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Reply by captain_skeptical on July 5, 2008 at 11:22 AM
I live because I enjoy being alive and this is the only life I will have. I live because I have family and friends who I want to spend as much time as possible with. That is why I live and I try to live hard for myself and my family.
If you think this life is not worth living but that there is a paradise after you die, why live in this life?
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Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 5, 2008 at 12:18 PM
"If you think this life is not worth living but that there is a paradise after you die, why live in this life?"
capt
no I wasn't talking about the afterlife actually... I wanted to know what gets you up in the morning. What fulfills you.
I have family too and they are precious but they are temporary and I understand that. All things are temporary, everything lives and everything dies.
We don't get better we regress, in our age we don't get stronger we get weaker.
I don't understand why the human can't evolve into something else, always been a mystery but life seems to stop there.
Do you have an explanation? actually anyone here have any scientific explanation why man just ceases to live rather than evolve into another creature as done before?
and for Heaven's sake leave global warming out of it.
lmao!
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 12:21 PM Quote
Reply by CatBallouGOLD on July 5, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Oh! ROFL!! I love this!!! :))
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Reply by captain_skeptical on July 5, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Bodacious I know you will not believe me because you are convinced you hace a good understanding of evolution theory, but by asking
"Do you have an explanation? actually anyone here have any scientific explanation why man just ceases to live rather than evolve into another creature as done before?"
you are demonstrating to everyone with even a basic understanding of the science that you don't have a clue what evolution is or how it works.
I can't even grasp exactly what you expect to happen. Are you suggesting we should evolve to never die? Are you suggesting that in the past (according to your understanding of evolution)that living things have changed forms instead of dying? Are you suggesting evolution is some like reincarnation?
If you think evolution is any one of those three you are way off the mark. Even though I am not sure exactly what you think evolution is I can tell that you are very wrong (because you have said nothing right about it so far) and that whatever it is you do think is right out of a comic book. You are not going to learn anything about evolution from creationist literature or X-Men comic books.
You mentioned to me in messages that you have actually read books written by evolution scientists. Can you give me the names of those books and the authors?
I explained to you why I live life. What motivates me. What gives me purpose. I enjoy my life. It gives me pleasure to experience it and to share it with people I care about. Knowing it is finite makes it all the more precious to me. This is my motivation and this gives me purpose. Why would I need more than that? Did you really think I would find life unfulfilling, burdensome, pointless and worthless? If so why would you think that?
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Reply by scarlettohallGOLD on July 5, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Captain, I've seen you speak of evolution often and people's lack of understanding. I'll admit I really know nothing of evolution. I think evolution is something that changes to adapt to current conditions? Perhaps and I'm sure there's more to it but, that's MY understanding of it. For instance..Neanderthals had much more hair, sharper teeth, and so on and so on because they needed those things in order to survive. We've evolved from that with the world getting more modernized..we don't need a body full of hair to keep us warm because we have electric heaters. We don't need teeth like a bear because we can cook our food to a nice tender substance. I figure we'll evolve from what we are now also as the world changes.
So now, my question to you is....what exactly is evolution? Am I close?
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Reply by captain_skeptical on July 5, 2008 at 2:53 PM
You are close. Basically evolution works because when genetic information if passeddown in successive generations mistakes occur causing mutations. Mutations are basically imperfect replications of genetic material. This can happen spontaneously during replication or during sexual reproduction or it can occur as a result of enviromental factors such as radiation. These "mistakes" or mutations will be passed on to successive generations if the original organism survives long enough to pass on genetic information, and the next generation survives long enough to do the same and so on. Mutation is a random event and may cause traits that are harmful, neutral or beneficial. This is where natural selection comes in. Natural selection is a natural process that takes the randomness out of evolution. Organisms with traits that are beneficial to survival and passing on of genetic material to further generations will have an advantage over organisms who's traits are not beneficial or even a hindrance to it. This means that the beneficial traits will have a greater probabability of persisting as they are passed along and traits that are not beneficial will have a greater probability of not persisting and the organisms carrying the trait will have a greater probability of being "selected" for extinction. The natural enviroment, sexual selection, availability of resources, competing organisms and the ifitness of nherant traits of organisms to deal with these things will determine whether the changes from mutation will be selected for success and persistence or for eventual extinction.
That is a very basic explanation.
Natural selection is also not the only thing that determines how things will change. Things like genetic drift, sexual selection, symbiotic evolution, etc also are factors to consider that we are still learning. But they, like natural selection, are natural processes.
For a more detailed explanation, Berkley has a good tutorial site:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/index.shtml
There is evidence of modern man evolving but not significantly because we are already well adapted to our enviroment ant and enviromental pressures on us are not significant. Something nature favors is economy of energy. A very crude way to put this is "if it ain't broken, why fix it" We don't need body hair as much as our evolutionary ancestors (but we have it because our evolutionary ancestors did need it) and men do not require nipples, but they are not an impediment to our survival or successful passing on of genetic information, so we still have them. Change requires energy and nature conserves energy.
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 3:07 PM Quote
Reply by Arizonagal on July 5, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Haha...those are my favorite lines from Jurassic Park. :)
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Reply by Arizonagal on July 5, 2008 at 3:54 PM
The facts are in the Bible, Vella. :)
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Reply by CatBallouGOLD on July 5, 2008 at 4:28 PM
Scientists are playing around with the DNA of chickens trying to bring back the T-Rex, so those words could become fact soon enough. Leave it to some schmuck in a lab to play God with the genome. I'm thinking they should be the first to be eaten, if they succeed. I suppose the words "It's a bad idea" have yet to occur to those scientists. ;)
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 4:33 PM Quote
Reply by Arizonagal on July 5, 2008 at 4:55 PM
Don't ya know, Cat, that Jurassic Park is based upon true incidents?
Just kidding! lol
I agree with ya though...main course: blood-sucking lawyers; dessert: dirty politicians. ;)
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Reply by captain_skeptical on July 5, 2008 at 5:21 PM
"The facts are in the Bible, Vella. :)"
That is a good way to shut open dialogue or avoid having to support your position. You might even find it reaffirms your presuppositions to reiterate them in an absoloute manner like that, but it is not useful for much else. It is not persuasive, it does not allow for critical examination and it is let's face it, rather arrogant.
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 5:36 PM Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 5, 2008 at 5:32 PM
Basically my point was that FEW have a clue regarding any aspects of Particle Physics, and it's complexity. You are still going to get those that state "Somebody had to create the Big Bang" therefore it was God. Fact is to many, God as a concept just makes more sense than Particle Physics, terms such as billions of years, Death, etc. These are all extreme concepts nebulous to many, yet God doesn't appear less reasonable despite Aspects of Cosmology to many already. There are those that believe God can exist and the Big Bang Theory is legit too. As long as people have a need to believe in God, God will exist. Physical sciences do little to quell emotional need.
Do you really believe MOST here understand what CERN is actually doing (even assuming they read the concept) ? This is quite abstract. Average intellect doesn't comprehend Cosmology, and even those that have some element of understanding have many questions regarding links that just need answers where there are currently none that seem sound.
Bottomline, is that those wishing for answers and more simplicity are still going to say
"IT is all possible because of God"
Do I believe this ? I have no clue. I doubt it, but I'm not writing this based on my own Agnostic skeptical perspective.. I'm not quite as bright as Hawking who poked fun of Einstein saying "Not only does God throw dice with the Universe, but he often throws them in some corner where nobody can see them". This level of Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Theoretical Physicals, and Particle Theory isn't going to disprove much to the mainstream public that has a tough time even (Forget it, I won't say it however it's not overly flattering). You an dress folks up, but that just makes many of us dressed up Cavemen.
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 5:55 PM Quote
Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 5, 2008 at 5:37 PM
Capt,
Most of what I read about evolution are text books, I have a teenager.
The other material I have checked out of the library includes
Darwin's Black Box by Behe and a few other sources and there was another one the title escapes me but basically it did very little to prove the natural selection process.
I will see if I can look up the book somehow but it's been a few years since I checked it out in the library.
True I could have lost a lot of recall about what I read but the certain things that did stick was the inability to communicate effectively and logically how natural selection works with micro evolution.
aside of all that... I am a concerned parent and I am well aware that people have been misled for centuries by a single man. Think Hitler, Joseph Smith, etc... no I am not calling J.Smith, Hitler I am pointing out that he led millions of people astray into a strange doctrine.
Darwin said himself if he didn't see the evolution of mankind in his own lifetime then he was off on his theory. He dies and now people run rampant with man-made explanations of what Darwin didn't understand. Apparently...
Rich, people can be persuaded easily if they really want to exclude another possibility bad enough.
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 5:38 PM Quote
Reply by Arizonagal on July 5, 2008 at 5:44 PM
That is a good way to end an argument...my beliefs are indisputable.
Incidentally, confidence may not be misconstrued as arrogance.
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 5:46 PM Quote
Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 5, 2008 at 5:44 PM
Do you realize that you are trusting the same man you claim who wrote the Bible with your own personal beliefs of evolution?
The skulls and bones they put together to form creatures pre-dating man in the museums are not even credible. They have already been caught mixing species to create one that supports the evolution of man.
I know every time I bring this up you just say I clearly don't understand evolution. Why are you trusting these people who have been lying for so long and refuse to spend the money and time correcting it?
I mean our children can still go to these museums and read these outdated textbooks and be taught the lie.
It is so accessible to anyone and pushed by society as truth. Yet it as a whole is not truth at all.
I can't in good standing know what I know about the construction of what is being deemed as historical evidence for evolution and not speak up.
To think that many refer to me as one with "blind faith" yet with my eyes opened wide I can still see no reason to accept the lies.
If they corrected their wrongs, if they updated their textbooks, if they admitted we don't know, then I would give an ear to evolution.
It needs to put God back where he rightfully belongs.
He began this world and everything in it.
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 5:45 PM Quote
Reply by captain_skeptical on July 5, 2008 at 5:46 PM
It may be a good argument but throwing up in the punch bowl is a good way to end a party...I would not reccommend doing it.
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Reply by captain_skeptical on July 5, 2008 at 5:55 PM
As I have pointed out before, your lack of understanding on evolution science gives you no authority at all on how credible or discreditable evolution theory is.
When there has been fraud in evolution science (there has been a few rare cases) it was discovered by other scientists and brought to light by scientists. When scientists make mistakes it is other scientists who discover those mistakes. None of the fraudelent evidence or mistakes discovered by scientists in evolution science has even been close to bringing evolution down as a whole. To say that evolution has no credibility because piltdown man was a hoax is like saying the physics is not credible because cold fusion was a fraud.
You think evolution is a lie because you have heard or read that it is and accepted that without ever taking the time to study the science and see for yourself.
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 6:06 PM Quote
Reply by Arizonagal on July 5, 2008 at 6:55 PM
Then don't do it! ;)
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Reply by captain_skeptical on July 5, 2008 at 7:05 PM
I will stop puking in punchbowls if you stop making absolute claims about the bible being true and god's word. Deal?
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Reply by Arizonagal on July 5, 2008 at 7:20 PM
Ah, but I cannot tell a lie. ;)
Reckon you're gonna be pukin' alot. lol
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Reply by NovellaNEWS-TEAM on July 5, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Novella .................................................................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
You're a fecking comedian.
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Reply by NovellaNEWS-TEAM on July 5, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Novella .................................................................HAHAHAHA!
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Reply by monkeysmama21GOLD on July 5, 2008 at 10:10 PM
You know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of how so many people refer to the Bush administration. How they always say that they want the truth and that it's being kept from them and so on and so forth. Why is it, that all of the inconsistencies with the evolution theory aren't exposed the way that people who almost worship the idea of the government being corrupt are? Isn't it ironic that many of the same people that demand the truth from our government, refuse to even consider all of the problems with the evolution theory? Just a thought :)
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Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 5, 2008 at 10:20 PM
No they have not all been rectified. They are still misleading and teaching outdated portions of Evolution and yes it does damage it's credibility, very much so.
If you find it acceptable to sell a little lie along with some truth then your integrity as a human (animal) is at risk.
it's all or nothing... Unless i missed it somewhere and you are a scientist (sure why not this is the internet) I don't see where you have put anything to the test. So far you have just showed me and everyone else who opposes portions of Evolution that if you read it and make it look presentable falsifying visual evidence as long as a scientist slaps his/her name on it then it must be truth.
I'm not willing to do that, sorry.
******
do you want to discuss MICRO EVOLUTION yet?
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 10:24 PM Quote
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Reply by NovellaNEWS-TEAM on July 5, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Novella .................................................................What are the problems with the theory? For the scientific minds, what other alternatives are there? (I ask because i don't know)
...and to answer your question: Probably because we've already evolved, regardless of how - it's already done... so it's not a top priority. But what our government does directly effects us, today - in present times.
People are more aware of what is happening around us (where people are still around and alive to explain it) than something that happened gazillions of years ago with no concrete proof.
That's my guess.
Edited on July 5, 2008 at 10:21 PM Quote