Having had some exposure to Orthodox Jewish superstition, I found many I got along with called themselves "Recovering Catholics" and actually had it much worse ! Not too different in many ways. Any thoughts regarding Orthodox religion ? Assuming you escaped how tough was it ? Did you completely break-free ? I saw many collegemates suffering because as males afraid to "put out" due to punishment from God, their girlfriends were looking elsewhere. What a horrible thing for a male in his prime to have to deal with IMHO..
Fear of God sucks ! (this is my own quote, and I doubt it'll likely make it into any profound philosophical literature)
I'm not going to be participating much in this thread, I do however wish to read responses and hear others feelings. How many felt paralyzed by the God they were exposed to ? Some parents DID in fact say to their children things such as "Everytime you masturbate God kills a kitten".
(Good thing I've trained this VOX software to type because I went blind awhile back) Sorry cat lovers, I couldn't allow my life to become total hell. Some survive orthodox religion, it obviously wasn't for me. My exposure btw wasn't even direct, just all the relatives outside my immediate family, but even THAT was too much
I'm guessing you're referring to Eastern Orthodox?
I was born and raised Catholic and I'm still Catholic. I can't say I ever felt paralyzed. I've never been afraid of God. I was always taught that God loved me no matter what. I was never told awful things like that...that God would do something bad if I sinned. NEVER!!
Kappy, My path of spiritual pursuit was nothing even close to orthodox. However, in that journey, I have encountered many, studied and investigated one form of orthodox system of belief or another.
Most of the time, people tend to think that orthodox means either something like Catholic, Orthodox Jew or even Eastern Orthodox. It is a bit broader in my limited experience. Any system of beliefs that is rigidly codified has the earmarks of orthodoxy. This includes Islam, Sikh, some forms of Buddhist and many other systems of belief. This doesn't even touch on various groups of people that are outside the mainstream of religion that have very rigid beliefs. Those include groups of people that even go so far as to raise babies for black market trade. YES! They have a very strict religious code also.
What I found common in all groups that have the foundation of orthodox systems is the one thing you point to. FEAR! That is not to say that ALL orthodox systems promote fear. However, it is extremely common as a manipulation tool to get people to adhere to the tenets of that set of beliefs.
Now since the only things I'm really afraid of is my mama when she is mad and snakes, those systems did not work well for me at all. I even spent several years involved with a Bible cult. When I finally challenged the leadership on precepts they were teaching, I was told to get out. HA! They were not the first to give me the boot. At last count, I have been tossed from the cult and 5 other churches.
In none of those situations was I ever belligerent or rude or nasty. I asked questions and the leaders of the organized groups got a lil on the ticked off side when I would insist they back up what they said. Telling me I have to "have faith" or "believe more" just didn't fly as an explanation.
I find it horribly sad that religion is foisted upon people by the equivalent of emotional blackmail. Think of all those poor kittens! Uff!!! I do think presenting the foundations of caring for each other, playing nice in the sandbox and taking naps is a very good start for instilling a respect for religion in a child. To promulgate fear makes a travesty of what religion is supposed to be all about.
scarlettohall wrote: I was born and raised Catholic and I'm still Catholic. I can't say I ever felt paralyzed. I've never been afraid of God. I was always taught that God loved me no matter what. I was never told awful things like that...that God would do something bad if I sinned. NEVER!!
WOW, this is the first time I've ever heard this from a person who's Catholic. I think that's great. I was talking to a few women who were "New Advent" Catholic, and to be honest, it sounded pretty nice.
Peachy, yep, fear was the common denominator that all shared and exchanged around me.
scarlettohall wrote: I was born and raised Catholic and I'm still Catholic. I can't say I ever felt paralyzed. I've never been afraid of God. I was always taught that God loved me no matter what. I was never told awful things like that...that God would do something bad if I sinned. NEVER!!
WOW, this is the first time I've ever heard this from a person who's Catholic. I think that's great. I was talking to a few women who were "New Advent" Catholic, and to be honest, it sounded pretty nice.
Peachy, yep, fear was the common denominator that all shared and exchanged around me.
There are more of us out there. :) I think the problem is that many people are ignorant of what the church really teaches. So then you have teachers and parents telling kids some crazy kind of stuff..then add in others that interpret the bible in whatever way they want to and that causes confusion. Then you're left not knowing what to believe or think. ;)
I grew up Pentecostal and yes, I lived in constant fear of being sent to hell if I sinned. But as I got older and began to read the Bible and pray for myself, the Lord revealed Himself to me, and my fear of Him disappeared
Think about it for a minute. If there is nothing I could ever do on my own to be good enough to get to Heaven, doesn't it stand to follow that there is nothing bad enough I could do to get sent to Hell?
I wrote about it here if you would like to know more:
danacain wrote: Think about it for a minute. If there is nothing I could ever do on my own to be good enough to get to Heaven, doesn't it stand to follow that there is nothing bad enough I could do to get sent to Hell?
OF COURSE ! and this is MY whole take on the biggest problem in with the way TOO many religions are presented ! A MASS of contradictions which DOES in fact make the deity look sadistic !
ie.. the all or none polarization God/Satan Heaven/Hell, yet aren't most of us forced to realize the world is neither black or white but GREY ? Why would God refuse to see this ? Heaven is such an elitist place ? Doesn't sound like a place I'd be comfortable anyway.. I'm not going to be free to think for myself up there either obviously !! Sort've a "Stepford" place ?
He gives us minds to question, reason, and bodies to experience pleasure and than damns us to hell when we need to find pleasure amongst this hellish existence here on earth, or experiment with our bodies going thru normal human phases (according to our development that is). This is analogous to asking, "What kind god chops hands off when kids reach into the cookie jar" ?
and the biggest thing that doesn't make sense to me.. Why does a perfect deity have the appearance of an elderly man with an ego and a polarized all/none personality ? Why would he allow ANY of his creations to go to hell ? How about other religious beliefs ? According to the pentacost (as I recall) others in different locations go to hell for their beliefs since they aren't among "The Chosen" ? What's with this horrible EGO this God has. To me God was clearly quite sadistic, and likely in his 50's going thru Andropause during the time he made all these god awful rules :)
Clearly, to me.. Man in not having answers to the scariest questions created another parent who exists "out there" where-ever there might be ! Along with all the quirks and superstitious concepts of the times that only man has ! People as social beings need rules, law and discipline and answers. So much so, that I feel they'll go to extremes to create them !
It's sad that for some, it takes a punitory idea to keep the species :Good: but does orthodox religion even accomplish that ? I think not (personally that is). It triggers unfair bias thru fear too.
Hey Steven, check this out.......far from false orthodoxy, nonetheless the truth. Modern false ecumenical christianity downplays the fear of God thus keeping the people from truly knowing God. But it is all written in His Word. You will find all the answers to your questions when you begin to fear Him ;) and because you (we) are evil we do not know when He will visit His wrath upon us......I suggest fear and repentance is the order of the day, that He might fill you with His joy. Broad is the way to destruction, and many go there.
Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. (Psalm 33:8)
You, Yourself, are to be feared; and who may stand in Your presence when once You are angry? (Psalm 76:7)
I know that whatever God does, it shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, and nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him. (Ecclesiastes 3:14)
I. Fools Abound
Without the true fear of God, one is left knowing nothing (as in 1 Timothy 6:4), because the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7). A person does not even begin to have knowledge if they do not fear God, as it is written, "fools hate knowledge" (Proverbs 1:22). Without the true fear of God, a person is a fool, because the true fear of God is also the beginning of wisdom (Psalm 111:10). A person does not even begin to have wisdom if they do not fear God, as it is written, "fools despise wisdom and instruction" (Proverbs 1:7). The sad reality of all of this is, such is the miserable state of mankind. They are fools (Psalm 14:1-3).
There is no fear of God before their eyes. (Romans 3:18)
This is why, "The hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live" (Ecclesiastes 9:3), because they do not fear God (Psalm 36:1).
II. False Fear
To make matters worse, "Christian" false teachers divert people away from the true fear of God, with the result that people continue to be fools, and this is horrible; because the legacy of fools will be eternal shame (i.e. hell, Proverbs 3:35; Jeremiah 23:40; Daniel 12:2). As there is nothing new under the Sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9), it is like the Israelites of old. As it is written,
Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men, therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work among this people, a marvelous work and a wonder; for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish. (Isaiah 29:13-14)
The wisdom of the "wise" men has perished in our day. A graphic example of this is a book written by Randy Peterson and David New. The title reads, "How To Fear God Without Being Afraid Of Him" (Victor Books, copyright 1994). This title is downright stupid! It is like saying, "How To Love God Without Loving Him."
In this book, these authors write,
It's this message - "God will get you" - that runs repeatedly in the minds of many people in this world. They fear an abusive God, one who will punish them without warning for unspecified sins. A personal relationship with such a God would be dangerous, if it were possible at all. (p. 100)
Randy and David write as if God is not like this, but the truth is, He is! He will most certainly punish without warning for unspecified sins! Jesus warned of this in Luke 13.
There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:1-5)
Jesus points out in the two incidents mentioned that the people God killed were not worse than others. In other words, there were no terrible specific sins these people were guilty of. God just came along, without warning, and killed them (Deuteronomy 32:39), and Jesus warns the same is going to happen to you, if you don't repent.
Randy and David call this abusive. God calls it justice (Deuteronomy 32:4), as Paul wrote,
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. (Galatians 6:7; see also Numbers 32:23)
People have sown sin (Romans 3:23), and they will reap death (Romans 6:23; Revelation 21:8). God will make sure of it (Revelation 20:11-15).
If people did fear this "abusive God," as Randy and David claim, they would have a personal relationship with Him (Psalm 103:11-18; John 17:3). The problem is, they don't fear Him (Romans 3:18), and so they will forever know His wrath (as in Revelation 14:9-11).
Mr. Peterson's and Mr. New's deceit is a bit more obvious. But some are much more subtle than this.
Like John MacArthur, who says the right thing (Matthew 12:34), but then says the wrong thing, and by it brings destruction (2 Peter 2:1-3). MacArthur purports to teach a "holy terror" (The Love of God, p. 11; Successful Christian Parenting, p. 78), but his "holy terror" is not true holy terror, because in hypocrisy he also teaches "It is not referring to being afraid" (The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1771). In his commentary regarding Matthew 10:28 he writes,
. . . this fear is not that of terror or fright, but of reverential awe and honor. (The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, Matthew 8-15, copyright 1987; for more on MacArthur, see our report on MacArthur's Damning Doctrine)
This statement is insane (Ecclesiastes 9:3). Note Matthew 10:28, the verse MacArthur is commenting on:
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)
MacArthur says "not that of terror or fright" when considering "Him" who can "destroy both soul and body in hell"! That is much more terrifying and frightful than someone who can "kill the body but cannot kill the soul," and that could be a terrifying and frightful event! Yet, having "both soul and body" destroyed in hell, which means eternal torment (e.g. Revelation 14:11; 20:10), is eternally more terrifying and frightful! Simple faith in what Jesus said dictates that. Thus MacArthur reveals his unbelief in the word of God. MacArthur claims "this fear is not that of terror . . . ." His words are words of madness (Ecclesiastes 9:3) and empty (2 Peter 2:18).
Because our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29; see also Isaiah 33:14)!
Anyone who knows God, knows fear means fear (i.e. to be afraid), especially when it comes to the Almighty. Because, both in His severity (Psalm 90:11) and in His goodness (Jeremiah 33:9; Luke 5:26; 7:16), He is terrifying.
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)
Be it good or evil (Isaiah 45:7 KJV), blessings or calamity (Lamentations 3:37-38 KJV), God is the creator of it all; and this is terrifying. As Job said,
He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does. For He performs what is appointed for me, and many such things are with Him. Therefore I am terrified at His presence; when I consider this, I am afraid of Him. For God made my heart weak, and the Almighty terrifies me. (Job 23:13-16)
God has the power, right, and will (according to what He sees fit, Psalm 115:3) to destroy your life (as in Job 1 & 2) or bless it (as in Job 42:10; James 5:11), to save you from eternal torment (Hebrews 7:25), or to burn you in hell forever (e.g. Jude 7).
Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it. (Deuteronomy 10:14)
And,
Whatever the Lord pleases He does, in heaven and in earth. (Psalm 135:6)
Bildad the Shuhite rightly said, "Dominion and fear belong to Him" (Job 25:1-2). It all belongs to Him (Psalm 24:1), every single soul belongs to Him (Ezekiel 18:4), and
He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Romans 9:18)
He creates vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath (Romans 9:21-23) and destines people to either eternal life or eternal torment completely apart from anything they may or may not do (Romans 9:11), but solely based upon His will (Romans 9:16, 18), His pleasure (Psalm 115:3; Ephesians 1:5).
There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. (James 4:12)
And this is the terrifying truth. So Psalm 130 says,
If You, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? But there is forgiveness with You, that You may be feared. (Psalm 130:3-4)
Mercy is only found within the power and will of the Almighty.
Our God is the God of salvation, and to God the Lord belongs escape from death. (Psalm 68:20)
To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, (Daniel 9:9)
Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! (Revelation 19:1)
"Therefore men fear Him" (Job 37:24), because they know therein lies their only hope (Acts 4:12). For,
The Lord takes pleasure in those who fear Him, in those who hope in His mercy. (Psalm 147:11; see also Luke 1:50; Acts 10:35)
But,
The face of the Lord is against those who do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth, (Psalm 34:16)
and to destroy them forever in hell (Isaiah 66:24; Revelation 20:10-15; 21:8). Thus, David wrote,
In fear of You I will worship toward Your holy temple. (Psalm 5:7)
The song of the Lamb asks,
Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? (Revelation 15:4)
In Hosea 13:1 the Lord describes Ephraim as doing well when he "spoke, trembling," and so are we, if we are literally trembling before God. True Biblical fear demands trembling, because, in truth, God is so fearful it actually causes literal trembling before Him.
Daniel writes of King Nebuchadnezzar,
And because of the majesty that [God] gave him, all peoples, nations, and languages trembled and feared before him. Whomever he wished, he executed; whomever he wished, he kept alive; whomever he wished, he set up; and whomever he wished, he put down. (Daniel 5:19)
The people in the days of King Nebuchadnezzar had the sense to rightly tremble and fear before a mighty king (Proverbs 24:21; Romans 13:7). As God does, Nebuchadnezzar did whatever he pleased, as a true king can (Ecclesiastes 8:1-2). Therefore, if the people of Daniel's day rightly and literally trembled and feared before an earthly king, a man in whose breath was in his nostrils (Isaiah 2:22), how much more should we tremble and fear before,
He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Timothy 6:15; see also Psalm 103:19)?
God is the eternal King (Psalm 10:16; 29:10), who will execute whomever He wishes (Deuteronomy 32:39), keep alive whomever He wishes (1 Samuel 2:6), set up whomever He wishes (e.g. Job 12:23), and put down whomever He wishes (e.g. Luke 1:52).
Not only that, but as the King of all the earth works in His creation (Psalm 47:7), His work provokes fearful trembling before Him. Elihu, who knew the fear of God and trembled before Him, said,
Behold, God is great, and we do not know Him; nor can the number of His years be discovered. For He draws up drops of water, which distill as rain from the mist, which the clouds drop down and pour abundantly on man. Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds, the thunder from His canopy? Look, He scatters his light upon it, and covers the depths of the sea. For by these He judges the peoples; He gives food in abundance. He covers His hands with lightning, and commands it to strike. His thunder declares it, the cattle also, concerning the rising storm. At this also my heart trembles, and leaps from its place. (Job 36:26-37:1)
God is indeed great, and His works in creation are awesome.
He does great things which we cannot comprehend. (Job 37:5)
And this should cause fearful trembling before Him, as the King of glory (Psalm 24:7-10) Himself says,
"Do you not fear Me?" says the Lord. "Will you not tremble at My presence, who have placed the sand as the bound of the sea, by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass beyond it? And though its waves toss to and fro, yet they cannot prevail; though they roar, yet they cannot pass over it. But this people has a defiant and rebellious heart; they have revolted and departed. They do not say in their heart, 'Let us now fear the Lord our God, who gives rain, both the former and the latter, in its season. He reserves for us the appointed weeks of the harvest.' Your iniquities have turned these things away, and your sins have withheld good from you." (Jeremiah 5:22-25)
The King of Israel (Isaiah 44:6) Himself appeals to His work in creation and calls the Israelites to note it and fear, but their "iniquities have turned these things away."
Jeremiah wrote,
Inasmuch as there is none like You, O Lord (You are great, and Your name is great in might), who would not fear You, O King of the nations? For this is Your rightful due. For among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like You. (Jeremiah 10:6-7)
There is none like the King of the Jews (Mark 15:2).
For the Lord is great and greatly to be praised; He is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the peoples are idols, but the Lord made the heavens. (Psalm 96:4-5; see also 1 Chronicles 16:25; Psalm 48:1)
Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and His greatness is unsearchable. (Psalm 145:3)
King Darius, after seeing God's awesome mercy towards Daniel (a Jew, Romans 2:28-29), made this decree:
I make a decree that in every dominion of my kingdom men must tremble and fear before the God of Daniel. For He is the living God, and steadfast forever; His kingdom is the one which shall not be destroyed, and His dominion shall endure to the end. He delivers and rescues, and He works signs and wonders in heaven and on earth, who has delivered Daniel from the power of the lions. (Daniel 6:26-27)
Darius rightly decreed that men should tremble and fear before the God of Daniel, because this is the same decree the King of the saints (Revelation 15:3) has made.
The Lord of hosts, Him you shall hallow; let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread. (Isaiah 8:13)
Tremble, O earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob. (Psalm 114:7; see also1 Chronicles 16:30; Psalm 96:9; 99:1; Joel 2:1; Ephesians 6:5; Philippians 2:12)
The Psalmist wrote this of the everlasting King (Jeremiah 10:10):
My flesh trembles for fear of You, and I am afraid of Your judgments. (Psalm 119:120)
This statement is made in the context of overwhelming love for God's word (e.g. Psalm 119:47-48, 97, 113, 119, 127, 159, 163-165, 167). Thus, it is made in the context of overwhelming love for God (Mark 12:30), since God and His word are one (John 1:1). Therefore, loving God and being afraid of Him are congruous.
Likewise, the fear of the Lord and the joy of the Lord, tremble together. As it is written,
Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. (Psalm 2:11)
In the true fear of God, fear and trembling and rejoicing in the Lord (Philippians 4:4) are harmonious as well.
Finally, it is the godly who find it in their hearts (Psalm 65:4) to tremble before His word (e.g. Ezra 9:4; 10:3), as the Lord says,
But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word. (Isaiah 66:2, see also verse 5)
It is an abomination to fools to depart from evil. (Proverbs 13:19)
Therefore, those who claim to fear God, yet continue in their sin, are fools and liars (1 John 2:4), as it is written,
He who walks in his uprightness fears the Lord, but he who is perverse in his ways despises Him. (Proverbs 14:2)
There is no way someone who fears God can continue in sin unrepentantly, because,
By the fear of the Lord one departs from evil. (Proverbs 16:6)
Those who fear God repent, and they love correction (Proverbs 12:1; 15:5); because they know it is the way of life (Proverbs 6:23).
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death. (Proverbs 14:27)
The wicked, those who don't fear God (Romans 3:8) love death (Proverbs 8:36), hate correction (Proverbs 1:22; 12:1; 13:18; 15:10), and don't turn from their evil ways (e.g. Proverbs 1:30; Isaiah 9:13; Jeremiah 15:7; 36). The godly, those who tremble at His word, do (Psalm 141:5), because,
Though a sinner does evil a hundred times, and his days are prolonged, yet I surely know that it will be well with those who fear God, who fear before Him. But it will not be well with the wicked; nor will he prolong his days, which are as a shadow, because he does not fear before God. (Ecclesiastes 8:12-13)
There may indeed be wicked people who "fear the Lord" (e.g. 2 Kings 17:24-41), but the truth is, if they turn not from their evil deeds (Proverbs 16:6), it is evident they really don't fear Him (as in 2 Kings 17:34); but instead, they renounce Him. For God is in none of their thoughts (Psalm 10:3-4).
Moreover, there is indeed an ungodly fear seen in Scripture (e.g. Genesis 3:10; 18:15; Mark 11:18; Revelation 6:15-17). Any fear in this context, that is, in disobedience to God, is simply ungodly, and it is not true godly fear of God.
Demons are noted as those who tremble (James 2:19), and they rightly do so, for God is fearful; but of course, they have no hope of salvation (Matthew 8:29; Hebrews 2:16).
VI. True Fear Hates
A Biblical definition of the fear of the Lord is found in Proverbs 8:13.
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil. (Proverbs 8:13)
Wisdom continues in Proverbs 8:13 stating that she hates pride, arrogance, the evil way, and the perverse mouth. She hates the actual mouth, which, of course, is connected to a body, a person.
The Lord declares,
These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren. (Proverbs 6:16-19)
A proud look, a lying tongue, hands, a heart, and feet, are all parts of a human being, and God says here He hates them.
Evil people are evil. As God does not separate the parts of the body from these people, so God does not separate the sin from the sinner until He saves them. And so, Proverbs 6 continues and clearly declares that the Lord hates a false witness and one who sows discord. These are particular kinds of people the Lord hates.
Actually, God hates "all who do evil" (Psalm 5:5, NLT; see also Psalm 5:6; 11:5), and so do those who fear Him.
David, who feared God (2 Samuel 23:3/1 Kings 15:5), expressed this godly hate very clearly in Psalm 139.
Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. (Psalm 139:21-22; see also Psalm 26:5; 31:6; 119:113)
They are enemies indeed. Those who do not fear God hate those who do, but their hatred is ungodly and evil. They hate God (Romans 1:28, 30), and they hate His people. As it is written,
An unjust man is an abomination to the righteous, and he who is upright in the way is an abomination to the wicked. (Proverbs 29:27)
The hatred is mutual, but one is justified. The other is not.
In the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence, and His children will have a place of refuge. (Proverbs 14:26; see also Psalm 112:7-8)
The true fear of God does not produce cowardice, but rather boldness, as Proverbs 28:1 says,
The wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion.
Cowards go to hell (Revelation 21:8), but the righteous, i.e. those who fear God, are in no way cowards, but are rather bold as a lion. God fearing people are able to live out serious confidence even in the face of horrifying circumstances. As the fear of the Lord instructs,
My son, let them not depart from your eyes - keep sound wisdom and discretion; so they will be life to your soul and grace to your neck. Then you will walk safely in your way, and your foot will not stumble. When you lie down, you will not be afraid; yes, you will lie down and your sleep will be sweet. Do not be afraid of sudden terror, nor of trouble from the wicked when it comes; for the Lord will be your confidence, and will keep your foot from being caught. (Proverbs 3:21-26)
Sleeping is a very vulnerable time. Someone could sneak upon you and kill you (as in Judges 4:21 or 2 Samuel 4:5-12). But those who fear God fear not. They have sweet sleep. They have peace (Isaiah 26:3; Philippians 4:6-7), and have confidence even in the face of sudden terror or trouble from the wicked. And, even if they fail in this, they turn back to it. As David wrote,
Whenever I am afraid, I will trust in You. In God (I will praise His word), in God I have put my trust; I will not fear. What can flesh do to me? (Psalm 56:3-4)
The answer? Nothing. Nothing that God Himself has not already decreed (Isaiah 46:10). For,
The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them. (Psalm 34:7)
So those who fear the Lord have great confidence (Proverbs 14:26), even in the face of the most important and most potentially horrifying time, that is, the eternal judgment of God. Those who fear God have great boldness (Ephesians 3:12; Hebrews 4:14-16; 10:19). As 1 John 4:17-18 declares,
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
Those who fear God believe in His mercy (Psalm 103:11-18). They believe in His forgiveness (John 3:16), and they know they have eternal life (1 John 5:13). They have boldness concerning "the day of judgment," because they do not fear condemnation (Romans 8:1). They do not fear torment. They look forward to their reward (Revelation 22:12-14), because they know God is; and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6; 9:27-28).
The fear cast out in 1 John 4:17-18 is the fear that involves torment (verse 18). It is the fear of condemnation. It is not the fear of God that is cast out. If it was, wisdom and knowledge would be cast out (Job 28:28)! No, it is actually the fear of God that casts out other fears, like the fear of man (Isaiah 8:11-13; Psalm 27:1; Proverbs 29:25), cowardice (2 Timothy 1:7), and the fear of death (Romans 8:15; Hebrews 2:14-15), which includes the fear of condemnation (the second death, Revelation 21:8).
Those who are afraid of God fear the one who "after He has killed, has the power to cast into hell" (Luke 14:4-5). Therefore, they conduct their time on this earth in fear (Romans 11:20-22; 1 Peter 1:17) being greatly motivated by this terror (2 Corinthians 5:11) to set their hope completely on the grace of God (1 Peter 1:13). They are diligent to enter His rest (Hebrews 4:11), because they know there is no other way to escape the wrath of the Almighty (John 3:36), except to fear Him and trust in His salvation (Psalm 119:166). For this is man's all, as it is written:
Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man's all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)
Job, a man who was terrified of God (Job 23:13-16), had this confidence that comes with the fear of God. He spoke of it in Job 19:25-27.
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!
Job longed for the day he would see God. He had no shame concerning that day, but rather great confidence, like David who wrote in Psalm 61,
I will abide in Your tabernacle forever. (Psalm 61:4)
This is the confidence of all who fear Him (Psalm 65:5). Since they fear Him (Luke 12:4-5), they need not fear (Luke 12:4-7; see also Exodus 20:18-20; 1 Samuel 12:20-25; Matthew 17:5-7).
VIII. True Fear Is Content
In this confidence that comes with the true fear of God, there is great satisfaction as well.
The fear of the Lord leads to life, and he who has it will abide in satisfaction; he will not be visited with evil. (Proverbs 19:23)
Years ago Mick Jagger sang, "I can't get no satisfaction." It was because he did not fear God (Romans 3:18). Many years ago King David feared God and he sang,
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. (Psalm 23:1)
David knew he would not lack. He knew he would abide in satisfaction, because he knew the Lord would never forsake Him (Hebrews 13:5).
Even though "the eyes of man are never satisfied" (Proverbs 27:20), those who fear the Lord find contentment in what little or much they have (Ephesians 5:5; Hebrews 13:5). They are satisfied with His goodness (Psalm 36:7-8; 37:19; 63:5; Proverbs 14:14), because they love the Lord and hate their possessions (Luke 14:33; 16:13).
Since the fear of God is wisdom (Job 28:28), it is no wonder that those who fear God are taught by God, and therefore have the wisdom of God. Psalm 25 says,
Who is the man that fears the Lord? Him shall He teach in the way He chooses. (Psalm 25:12)
Those who fear God have an anointing from the Lord (1 John 2:27) and receive special instruction from Him. As it is written:
The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him, and He will show them His covenant. (Psalm 25:12-14)
X. True Fear Is The Word of God
In the context of the law of the Lord, the testimony of the Lord, the statutes of the Lord, the commandment of the Lord, and the judgments of the Lord, Psalm 19:9 has, the fear of the Lord. All of these are synonyms for the word of God (e.g. see Psalm 119), including "the fear of the Lord" (Psalm 19:9).
The fear of the Lord is not only the beginning of wisdom and knowledge (Proverbs 1:7; 9:10), it is wisdom (Job 28:28). Christ is wisdom (1 Corinthians 1:24, 30), and Christ is the word of God (John 1:1, 14; Revelation 19:13). Therefore, if Christ is wisdom and the word of God, so the fear of the Lord is wisdom and the word of God. Proverbs 15:33 says, "The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom." That well describes the word of God as well, as Paul wrote,
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16)
Also, Proverbs 13:13 says,
He who despises the word will be destroyed, but he who fears the commandment will be rewarded.
Fearing the commandment and fearing God are one and the same.
XI. True Fear Lasts Forever
Some might argue that once someone comes to know the Lord, they no longer fear Him, but this would be a lie. Proverbs 23:17 says,
Do not let your heart envy sinners, but be zealous for the fear of the Lord all the day.
"All the day" dictates continually. As Proverbs 28:14 says, "How blessed is the man who fears always" (NAS). Also, the Psalmist in Psalm 119 writes,
Establish Your word to Your servant, who is devoted to fearing You. (Psalm 119:38)
Fearing God is a way of life. It is not something that is initially done and then cast off (a perversion of 1 John 4:17-18), as Psalm 72 illustrates:
They shall fear You as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations. (Psalm 72:5)
In the future, people will fear God (e.g. Psalm 67:7; 102:15; Isaiah 29:23; Hosea 11:10-11; Micah 7:17), and for all eternity people will fear the Lord, because,
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever. (Psalm 19:9)
Do you believe in the concept of cause and effect? Do you believe you should be able to do whatever you want without consequence?
If you touch a hot stove would you consider it unfair if you got burned?
If you played in traffic would you think it an injustice if you got run over?
If you steal wantonly do you think it wrong to be punished according to the law?
Most likely you, like me, think those are apt consequences to those actions. That's why we teach our children not to touch hot things, play in traffic or take things that don't belong to us.
You asked: "What kind god chops hands off when kids reach into the cookie jar" ?
You have free will; you can chose to do good or you can chose to do evil. You ask what kind of God punishes people for finding pleasure in this hellish existence; the answer to that lies in the heart of the person finding pleasure.
Some people find pleasure in causing harm to others. Do those people deserve to find punishment for their crimes?
Of course they do.
But you ask: what about people who steal to feed their families? Do you think God will punish them?
Do you know the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery who was brought to Jesus? What did He do? Did he chop off her hand or did he stone her as her accusers wanted to do?
I think you know the answer. That story is a perfect example of the true nature of God and His mercy.
You seem to think that God is waiting around to punish us for every misdeed; and yes, I know the teachings of the traditional church do lean that way. When the church became little more than an extension of the government they used whatever means available to keep people in line. But you have to know that isn't a clear or legitimate representation of who God is or even what the Bible teaches. If you've studied the Bible and developed your own relationship with the Lord you know it's not true. You know who God is.
Each person has an obligation to learn who God is and not rely on the teachings of others. Because we know how flawed people can be. People often ascribe their own hangups to God and in the process reduce Him to little more than a petty, ego maniacal tyrant.
Pretty much the impression you have of Him, huh.
As for the concept of Hell--again; it is a misdirection on the part of church leaders to gain control of their populace. The modern concept of hell has very little to do with what the bible actually says on the subject.
Bear in mind, when it comes to the Bible, it is easy to take a few verses and twist them to suit whatever agenda you wish. I'm sure you'll agree with me on that. That's why it's imperative to read the Bible in context and to ask the Lord to reveal His intent to you.
The Bible is nothing more than words on paper without the Holy Spirit to interpret it.
First, let me say that God doesn't send anyone to hell. It doesn't happen. "Hell" is merely a continuation of one's rejection of God in this life.
I mean, if you reject God in this life you have no expectation of being accepted by Him in the next do you?
Of course not. Why would you?
I think atheists are mainly correct in their idea of the afterlife; that when you die you die and that's all there is to it. For those who reject God there simply will be nothing else; you will simply cease to exist. There's no eternal torture; no hellfire. God is not a sadist. And He never forces Himself.
He's not a rapist.
If you chose to reject God, if you chose to believe He doesn't exist, if you believe there is no afterlife, then for you there will be no afterlife.
It's that simple.
However, for those who believe, who are faithful in that belief, they receive eternal life.
You see, the opposite of eternal life is eternal death, and what do the dead know? Nothing. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust.
I'm sorry. I've gotten long winded. I'll stop now. If you wish to continue I'm happy to oblige..:)
First, let me say that God doesn't send anyone to hell. It doesn't happen. "Hell" is merely a continuation of one's rejection of God in this life.
I mean, if you reject God in this life you have no expectation of being accepted by Him in the next do you?
Of course not. Why would you?
I think atheists are mainly correct in their idea of the afterlife; that when you die you die and that's all there is to it. For those who reject God there simply will be nothing else; you will simply cease to exist. There's no eternal torture; no hellfire. God is not a sadist. And He never forces Himself.
He's not a rapist.
If you chose to reject God, if you chose to believe He doesn't exist, if you believe there is no afterlife, then for you there will be no afterlife.
It's that simple.
However, for those who believe, who are faithful in that belief, they receive eternal life.
You see, the opposite of eternal life is eternal death, and what do the dead know? Nothing. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust.
So you are stating that you believe this life without God is the extent of Hell ?
and those that believe have eternal life ? Eternal life where ? What would that be like ? Is that necessarily good ? What does "eternal life" mean ? What sensations would accompany such an existence ?
I think the problem is the western stigma of death. Perhaps death is ultimate peace. I don't understand the concept of Heaven and Hell.
According to scriptures, hell is simply another word for the grave. That's it. It simply means death.
Death in this life, and death eternally.
One could go as far as to say that according to scripture, if you do not have the Spirit of Christ in you, you are already dead spiritually and the forfeiture of your mortal life is merely a stage in the death process.
But I feel it's important to stress that there is no "eternal torment" for those who reject God. Those who reject God in this life are simply destroyed in the "Second Death".
At no point does Scripture promise eternal torment for any but the Devil and his false prophet.
What kind of sick, sadistic God gets his jollies off torturing people for all eternity? That image of God isn't in keeping with a God of mercy and justice. Eternal torment isn't justice.
Even for the worst person on earth who ever lived.
Eternal punishment however, means simply that you will be destroyed--forever. You won't receive eternal life because you don't want it. You'll be judged before God on simply whether you accept Christ and that's it; if the answer is no then you don't receive the gift of eternal life. (bear in mind that i speak solely from a Biblical perspective; as you well know other religions have their own take)
To those who receive eternal life, they get to go to "heaven". Heaven is a difficult concept for many to grasp, but nearly every religion and culture has some concept of it. To me it is simply living eternally in the presence of God, without pain or sorrow or death.
As for what we will do there; no one knows. The bible says "no eye has seen no ear has heard"...so I imagine it's going to be pretty great.
If you would like me to post corresponding scripture regarding heaven and hell I'm happy to oblige.
When you see the concept of eternity in this light, the Orthodox view of hell seems pretty silly. The church paints God as a petty tyrant who's hiding behind every corner with a hammer waiting to strike. But that couldn't be further from the truth.
you couldn't be any more wrong about God, hell and the scriptures. People will indeed suffer the flame of eternal fire, tormented in pain forever. You obviously don't know the God of the Bible and have no fear of Him.
Who knows the power of Your anger? For as the fear of You, so is Your wrath. (Psalm 90:11)
The Lord is known by the judgment He executes. (Psalm 9:16)
The reality of hell is the most horrifying, terror striking, fearful truth known to man. It encompasses the worst possible fear and the meanest conceivable existence, continual never-ending torture.
And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10).
Most men lie to themselves and those around them (Ecclesiastes 3:11; Romans 1:18-32), but no amount of prevarication or fabrication will ever remove the eternal reality of Hell.
There is no wisdom or understanding or counsel against the Lord. (Proverbs 21:30)
I. The Place
Hell is a literal place (e.g. Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28). It is a literal place where literal people suffer the torment of a literal fire (e.g. Luke 16:19-31). Its location is down (Proverbs 15:24; Isaiah 14:9; Ezekiel 31:15-17; 2 Peter 2:4). Its temperature is burning hot (Luke 16:24; Revelation 19:20). Its luminance is "outer darkness" (Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30), also called "the blackness of darkness" (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 13). Its size is so massive it is never filled to capacity (Proverbs 27:20), though masses of people are in it and numbers more are added continually (Matthew 7:13-14; Romans 1:18). Its smoke will ascend forever (Revelation 14:11). Its fire will never be quenched, and the worm there will never die (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43-46, 48).
Hell is the place where the vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22) will be on display before all of mankind (Isaiah 66:24) and before the holy angels and the Lord Himself (Revelation 14:10). It is where Christ will show His wrath and make His power known for all eternity (Romans 9:22; Revelation 20:10). Hell is to the glory of God (Psalm 96:7-13) and the utter destruction of the wicked (Psalm 92:5-7).
Hell is where the mockers are now mocked (Proverbs 1:26). The scoffers are now put to shame (Proverbs 3:35; 13:5). Murderers are now being tortured with perpetual death (Matthew 10:28; Revelation 21:8, "the second death"). Oppressors are now laid low (1 Samuel 2:7). Liars experience the reality that they have been lied to (Revelation 12:9). Kidnappers are now eternal captives (1 Timothy 1:10; Revelation 20:11-15). The rich suffer severe poverty (Proverbs 22:16; 28:22; Luke 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). The full are now hungry (Isaiah 65:13; Luke 6:25). The proud are rebuked (Psalm 119:21) and fully repaid (Psalm 31:23). The disobedient are punished (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). Cowards are now "utterly consumed with terror" (Psalm 73:18-19; Proverbs 10:24; Revelation 21:8). Those who laughed are now weeping and mourning (Isaiah 65:14; Luke 6:25). Those honored by men are now despised and lightly esteemed by God (Luke 6:26; Psalm 73:18-20; 1 Samuel 2:30/Proverbs 14:2), and will in the future be abhorred by all mankind (Isaiah 66:24; Daniel 12:2). Those who have wickedly dug a pit, are now cast down into the pit (Psalm 7:14-16; 9:15-17; Proverbs 26:27; 28:10 [Ecc.10:8]). Lovers of pleasure are now tormented with fire (2 Timothy 3:4; Revelation 21:8). Those who cursed are now cursed (Proverbs 20:20). Those who considered the cross foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) are now shown the shrewdness of God (2 Samuel 22:26-28). God indeed is not mocked. Men will reap what they have sown (Galatians 6:7-8).
To get to hell, the directions are quite simple and easy to follow. All one has to do is continue to sin (Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Romans 6:23; Revelation 21:8), which, without the Savior, is impossible to do otherwise (John 8:34-36). Actually, all it takes is one ungodly statement of "You fool!" to put one in "danger of hell fire" (Matthew 5:22). It takes very "little" to get to hell. The gate that leads to hell is wide and the way that leads to hell is broad (Matthew 7:13). Continue on the course you have followed from birth (Psalm 58:3), and you are sure to get there (Romans 2:6-9).
Songslinger, I feel sorry for you. Your view of a cruel angry God keeps you in bondage and fear.
You've taken all your scriptures out of context to fit your agenda and therefore nullified the Word of God for your own tradition.
This idea you have of hell as a place of torment comes from medieval times and wasn't an accepted belief by the Jews or the early church. It was later used by the church to scare people into conformity.
Revelation 20 is speaking of the DEVIL, THE BEAST, and the FALSE PROPHET, not of people. Go read the ENTIRE PASSAGE and not just take one verse to prove a point.
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Do you know why they will be tormented forever? Because they are not mortal.
Read on....
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
See the reference to the second death? When sinners are thrown into the fire they are DESTROYED, not tortured, because they aren't given eternal life. You see, you don't have eternal life now because someday you will die. You won't receive eternal life until after judgment. On then will you become immortal.
The idea of "immortal soul" is a false one. Your soul isn't immortal. It CAN BE, but as of this moment it is not. Remember, God threw Adam and Eve out of the Garden before they had a chance to eat of the tree of Life, so mankind missed out on immortality.
In order to have eternal torment in this place called hell, you'd have to have eternal life and the wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal life. If you take five minutes to actually study the scriptures, you'll see that I'm right.
Murderers are now being tortured with perpetual death
The key word is PERPETUAL DEATH.
Get it? DEATH. You know nothing when you're dead. You're gone, finished, done.
but no amount of prevarication or fabrication will ever remove the eternal reality of Hell.
Hell, meaning death. as in the opposite of ETERNAL LIFE.
If you're dead you aren't alive, and if you're not alive you can't be tortured for all eternity can you?
and the utter destruction of the wicked (Psalm 92:5-7).
UTTER DESTRUCTION. Again, something that's DESTROYED UTTERLY no longer exists.
I'm going to quote now:
Compare Acts 2:27 with Psalm 16:10. It seems more logical to think of Christ in the grave instead of in a burning hell.
1 Corinthians 15:55 illustrates that "grave" is a proper reading for Hades. This verse is quoted from Hosea 13:14 in the Old Testament where we find the equivalent word Sheol (grave).
Hades is also used in Matthew 11:23; 16:18, Luke 10:23, and Revelation 1:18; 6:8. In Revelation 20:13-14, if one thinks of "hell" as death represented by the grave, it makes sense for hell to be cast into the lake of fire. After all, if "hell" itself is really a lake of fire, how can it be thrown into itself? This does not make any sense. Notice in 1 Corinthians 15:26 that death will be destroyed. What is represented by death? The grave!
The Bible does not teach a place of the conscious souls. The Greek Septuagint, which our Lord used when he read or quoted from the Old Testament, gives Hades as the exact equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol, and when the Savior, or his apostles, used the word, they meant the same as is meant in the Old Testament. Thus, the New Testament usage agrees exactly with the Old Testament. Literally, Hades means "death" or the "grave"; and figuratively, it means "destruction".
I think I know where the confusion comes from. The Bible makes several references to the fires of hell, but think about it; what does fire do? It DESTROYS!!! The only way you could have eternal torment in the fires of hell would be if you had eternal life...which we both agree you don't get unless you've accepted Christ.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Any reference to the "fires of hell" simply underscores the utter destruction of hell. When you are thrown into hell you will be utterly destroyed, not left alive to be tormented forever.
Psalms 92:7, "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"
Philippians 3:18-19, "...they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction..."
Psalms 37:20, "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
danacain wrote:Songslinger, I feel sorry for you. Your view of a cruel angry God keeps you in bondage and fear.
With arduous work and reticence *THIS* is the God I chose to have NOTHING to do with ! This is NOT a loving God, and I will go further and add the description furnished is enough to make me think there's very little that deliniates Heaven from Hell because I don't wish to be in Heaven with this Adoph Hitler you are describing as God !
JMHO..
How can ANYONE believe this is a perfect, omnipotent, loving deity ? Look at the Ego of this God. He giveth, and than watches with a plan to torture those that experiment with the tools he supplied us with ? He gives us a mind to question, shows some individuals absolutely no empirical evidence yet is quick to burn us for not seeing what isn't shown to all ? This creature you describe as a God would fare as well as Sodom Husseine during a trial.. This is an unjust Deity, not a God of love..Instead, this is the reason some that need God stay far away from God !
Living our current life fearing such a tyrant IS IN FACT living in Hell ! I was there, I am still running after having escaped... Worse thing that can happen is I end up back there however the physical torture might be far easier to endure than the emotional and mental abuse that is bestowed upon children thru the introduction of the Tyrant God watching them with a grin while anxiously awaiting to take them from their mothers for "bad thoughts" or "human mistakes".
Sorry, I had to vent...LOL.. Hey, if that God works for some, far beit from me to say that's not the best God for them. I am going to boycott such a nasty creature.
This *IS* typical of the orthodox less educated phobia induced perspective however. It does damage to some. Others live in a shoebox afraid to look out of the cracks of light between the cover of the box, and the box..
Superstitious fear is a great way to keep individuals paying organized religion ! This God you have described is clearly a VERY strict, scornful/bitter egomaniacal andropausal male worse than Archie Bunker and as dangerous as the Tyrants we wish to never encounter...Why do you want this creature in your life ? Because you fear him so much that you've convinced yourself he loves you ? Irrational !
I also have to question (considering it's now 2008) if such a representation of "God" should no longer be allowed among certain organizations because how does telling children this differ from Abuse or perhaps even terrorism ? It's CRUEL ! Additionally presenting this type image of God justifies Atheism to any reasonable individual not afraid to think ! Once you strip away the shackles of fear that imprison one to such a god, one can clearly understand life is tough enough. What POSITIVES does this terrifying god add to ones current life ? Is it any wonder that some opt to "take the risk" and say, To hell with this type terrifying God !
Lastly, of course I DO NOT feel comfortable talking this way about something that I find detestable. Early childhood induced superstition (This type God as presented) has LONG LASTING traumatic affects on those exposed to such a God :( Yet I believe it to be a VERY important part of ones development and search for a Loving God to denounce such a Tyrant you present
how would you explain lazuraus and the rich man ? the rich man died and he could see lazuraus in paradise with father abraham there was a great void fixed between them the rich man didnt just quit excisting . the rich man was dead and was in hell he asked for water to quench his thirst he also asked if it be possible to allow him to warn his brothers of this place . he could see lazuraus in all his glory enjoying paradise . it will be a sad day if we miss heaven . when you die you can either live on in heaven with Jesus and our father . oh if it was that easy that when one dies and not have Jesus they just stop excisting thats the problem with todays watered down religions they dont preach hell fire and brimstone messages they dont want to preach it real. its easier to fill the pews with the watered down pat you on the back kind of teachings .lets not scare the folks . hell is real and theres no in between place we are a spirit and when our body dies we will live somewhere . the devil doesnt have eternal life either he is a spirit and he will be there also in hell and all his unholy spirits . enternal life is just that enternal life ,life in heaven anything else would be eternal damnation thats my view . i just pray i make it thru those heaven gates . true God is a loving God he gives us chance after chance to choose or refuse him but once we take that last breath than its judgement day . hitler is burning in hell right now he knows hell is real the monster murderers baby killers who havnt repented and asked for forgiveness are there too . oh i surley dont want to share my enternity with those monsters . there is hope in all this we must take and make our choices sure so we dont miss out on that day . todays preachers in many cases have been told not to scare the folks . preach the warm fuzzy message and people will keep coming back . how many tv preachers would be popular if they preached that if you dont get right your going to hell ? theres a time and place for warm messages but there is also a time for truth about where we will be when we die . we dont have to live in fear we can have blessed assurance in Jesus thats my thoughts on hell and heaven
hobo56 wrote:how would you explain lazuraus and the rich man ?
I have no need to :) I don't take any of that to heart. Especially when there's so much going on TODAY in the here and now... I don't believe all I read, and I'm not smart enough to interpret metophors written years back by different generations of people correctly *assuming they mean much to begin with*, I find little interesting about the Bible, just quite a story to be honest. I'm a GOOD person, I won't kill a bug, I escort them outside, so if God will damn me because I've insulted his soured ego... screw him ! He doesn't deserve existing in my palace of peace where I'll be once I get out've hell. If the only way to God is thru some 2000 year old book, and having read much in the past, been needy, prayed, got down on my knees, I can honestly say I've done MY part..Let this stubborn God put something into our relationship too, this one-sided stuff just wasn't worth it considering the ego this God guy many told me about has !, and EVERYBODY that told me something contrary to another God believers thought regarding "what Gods wishes are" was VERY SURE they were correct btw, yet when it gets down to-You better believe or else- NO THANKS... Satan can't be all THAT bad compared to such an ill-willed God giving ultimatims to good people for what somebody did YEARS ago. This is not a God somebody like myself won't question, in fact, if I believed in a loving God, I'd think an omnicient, omnipotent, loving God would be VERY insulted at the old grouchy man/monster so many of you have reduced him to ! I'm questioning who some of the "sinners" may be.
If my intellect, and quest, and necessary grounds for defiance at this point become the loaded gun God shoots me with, well, he gave it to me with the intent on killing me with it in the first place, which is how I see all this ! I don't benefit from being God Fearing, having to go on a treasure hunt for a Deity that plays hide and go seek with his creations, seems goofy... I've lived too much of my life in Hell, and this God some of you describe makes Hell look like Disneyland compared to what Heaven must be like... I think many have it ass-backwards... I own a classic horror section of a video store (I bought out). Assuming I wish for fear, I have LOADS of movies I can pop into my VCR (yes I still live in the stone ages..LOL)..
No book is going to show me, or tell me who God is.. If there isn't a God that can be found beyond an ancient distorted book written by man, (and assuming without a bible I wouldn't know God exists) God really doesn't seem to care who does or doesn't believe, he makes little effort to reach to his creations... He's blaming me for Adam and Eve stuff ? and Stuff others did in the past ? WOW.... So God holds LONG grudges, and throws in the towel so I must make more of an effort to find him ? This is no GOD... This is a scorned grandpa you folks describe ! Just like in "The Jazz Singer", God rips his clothing saying "I have no more Kappy"... What a supreme being this is..LOL..I believe until *God* gives me a sign it's safe to assume there is no conscious God that communicates with us these days, if I have to look so hard to see "the light", there likely isn't a bulb that can do me much good assuming one exists at all... God might very well have existed a LONG time ago, he might exist today in some of you.. But why am I reading a story that's 2000 years old to find a God in the here and now that loves playing hide and go seek ? I just don't buy it.. A God that wants me to find him, a God that has the power and awareness most ascribe to him isn't going to send Kappy on a wild goose chase, and than to Hell holding me accountable for Some guy in the Garden of Eden YEARS ago.. That's just goofy. I've looked and looked and all I have is some T-shirt :)
Show me this God of Love... That I am receptive too.. That is something we ALL need in the world today.. I've gotten used to Hell, It's MUCH more peaceful up here than the religion and people I was exposed to down in that ugly place dyslexics call the path to Heaven. That path to Heaven was so cold and artificial a little heat and a few stabs with a pitchfork have since put some hair on my chest, and have gotten the blood flowing :)
Yep Scarlettohall, THAT sounds reasonable and rational, NOONE should refute that means of communicating a God of Love IMHO :) and I do just what you state in hopes of something coming together for me so I don't have to be old and lonely
Some people just don't get it. The road to God (for a guy in his mid-50's recovering from a life of "God is going to kill you") isn't instucting him to follow route 666, the fastest route since Satan paved it. Some of these individuals ARE NOT describing "God". This could NOT be how God is !! Not the great Creator... This guy being described seems pretty imperfect, angry, and very stupid.
Just take this one phrase.
All knowing, loving God.
Do some of you realize the mockery you are making of such a God, the damage being done in presenting such a fear-based concept to children ??? Do you ? Certainly a perfect God would appoint MUCH more qualified individuals to speak on his behalf than those that represent him as a terrorist !
Might as well open a restaurant, erect a "Grand Opening" sign, and vent noxious excrement odors to make your business appear attractive :(
I don't understand why some of the Christians and Religious people that believe in a loving god aren't angry at some of these presentations of their "Loving God".. What a horrible presentation some are making of God.. I lived a life of this garbage, but still want to find a loving God... Have SOME understanding as to why there might be less religion in the world today... Many that are religious are driving those of us that need a God of love FAR away...
While I am currently Agnostic, I recognise the emotional need for "God" many have. Probably myself included in the not so distant future. Having been bullied with "God", I really take umbrage at seeing God used as a fear-inducing tool, or a "threat"..
This is why I got passionate (when I seldom do). If there is ONE thing I find wrong it's telling kids (I was one of those kids) "God will punish you" to discipline them. That and "The police are going to come and take you away"...
Some must realize a "loving God" wouldn't wish to kill people in a Hitleresque manner, meaning "You aren't one of the chosen/elite/ (use any similar term here) based solely on their awareness of such a transparent concept. If there's a heaven, ALL good people should go there, and their pets and foreign friends that have no belief in God etc.. Because assuming there is ONLY ONE true God, This God MUST be impartial to be a "good" loving God, not judge from his "ego" but be impartial enough to understand Good people get confused and shouldn't be killed because we hurt his feelings.. How babyish ..
I would want my children to go to some church (I suppose which church would depend on the faith of my wife, assuming the God was a loving God, I wouldn't care since I have no faith of my own however I still would wish for them to have some exposure to a God, and from there make their own decisions... BUT... I'd also want to make sure this SUPREME SUPERIOR parent is presented in a much much more reasonable manner than I could behave as a parent.. Meaning I have an excuse, I am a stupid human.. But God must be THE ultimate parent.. THAT I would make sure of.. A good parent doesn't kill his kids ! ::Book of Kappy 1:45:::::
True God has every right to condemn us all to hell but Jesus said that He did not come into this world to condemn it but to redeem it.
We equivocate the kind of fear we have when we're scared with the fear of the Lord. But the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
If we learn to fear God and that is to acknowledge Who He Is and His power and majesty then we will change the way we live.
It is not to say that we need to live in fear of being punished or cast into hell if we say or do the wrong thing.
Jesus died for the sinner and none of us are worthy of that gift, but God loves us so much that he offers it anyways.
notice I said "Offers" it is your choice to receive or not.
that does not sound like a mean God to me.
May I also add what is on my heart right now to say...
Often we see God much like we do our earthly father, in my case controlling, mean, impossible to please, critical etc. That is how I saw God when I was in my teens.
Why? because my own father justified everything he did by using God's name and he read the Bible to us, while drunk he preached to us.
Times have changed and now I have come to know the Lord and and beginning to understand His character. It is nothing like His creation has made it to be.
Well, I'd just like to respectfully say that it bothers me seeing "God and Condemn" in the same sentence. I just don't understand it. Just my opinion and based on NOTHING more :)
OK, Hold on.. I just looked up the word "condemn", and I suppose in a certain sense meaning "To hold accountable for", I can understand.. I do not qualify to question the perspectives of Christianity not really understanding them.. I guess it depends on the basis of condemnation, and severity of punishment... I don't like "Condemn to Hell" for instance.. I personally wish the concept of Hell was abolished... again, JMHO...LOL
OK, sorry.. I typed out in a hypervigiliant manner not even having read your whole post prior to typing..LOL.. I guess I did get worked up... Shame on me. I guess I'm still bothered by the Orthodox concept of the God just standing there with a switch telling all of us to bend over and drop'm and next time won't be so pleasant...HAHAHA
Bodacioushahas wrote:Why? because my own father justified everything he did by using God's name and he read the Bible to us, while drunk he preached to us.
OUCH ! You likely had it worse than I did in many ways :( Yet you somehow transcended your experiences and went on despite them ! Good for you ! I think I'm still blaming what would benefit me for the lousy messengers.. IOW... In a sense, what I am doing is lashing towards a God when my anger would be towards your father for presenting him in perhaps an ill-fashion... I guess that is still immaturity on my part.
I think however, where you and I may disagree is the belief that "God has every right to condemn all of us to hell" in any sense. If God has every right to condemn all of us to Hell, hasn't God himself done something very wrong ? I know the bible says differently, however I think God has some accountability too. Each individual sentence should be directly commensurate with the INDIVIDUALS crime.. Not the crime of our ancestors. IMHO
Bodacioushahas wrote:Why? because my own father justified everything he did by using God's name and he read the Bible to us, while drunk he preached to us.
OUCH ! You likely had it worse than I did in many ways :( Yet you somehow transcended your experiences and went on despite them ! Good for you ! I think I'm still blaming what would benefit me for the lousy messengers.. IOW... In a sense, what I am doing is lashing towards a God when my anger would be towards your father for presenting him in perhaps an ill-fashion... I guess that is still immaturity on my part.
I think however, where you and I may disagree is the belief that "God has every right to condemn all of us to hell" in any sense. If God has every right to condemn all of us to Hell, hasn't God himself done something very wrong ? I know the bible says differently, however I think God has some accountability too. Each individual sentence should be directly commensurate with the INDIVIDUALS crime.. Not the crime of our ancestors. IMHO
Condemnation should be viewed more like sentencing for a crime. We are all sinners and we have all fallen short of the glory of God. It is a complex idea because you have to try to comprehend free will and then an omniscient or all knowing God.
It will literally drive you insane trying to discern without the Spirit. This is a very spiritual matter and can't be logically thought through with the minimal understanding we have as humans. We are spiritual beings. I have come to know this but still am learning, and suspect I will always have something to learn a goal to strive for until I die and all things are revealed.
I apologize if I am speaking in foreign terms it is just the way I communicate such things.
Every person is warned of their consequence so that justice can be served fairly. The people were warned that their unrepentant hearts would fall onto their children and their children's children yet the peopel were stubborn and evil in their deeds and thumbed their nose at God and didn't repent.
I suppose what confuses me (given my limited understanding) and my understanding of Omniscient, Omnipotant, loving and forgiving is why the Onus of thousands of years ago is being placed on some of us today. If God is still around, isn't it time for another miracle to show those of us that don't understand Him he's real ? Why does God need spokesmen ? I suppose my question is, wouldn't it be reasonable that this supreme-being would transcend something as limiting as emotion ?
What perplexes me about so much of God belief is that at times he appears to have the weaknesses of a very imperfect human whose feelings are hurt, and harbors resentment refusing to let go of the past, yet even we imperfect humans learn we can't blame a whole race of people for what a few might've done ages ago... while still, God is credited as "perfection", or isn't he ? This gets tough for me to understand.
Look at it this way, Politicians and parents and MOST disciplinarians get rejected and flipped the bird quite often, but they still don't lose site of "doing the right thing", because they realize they are ABOVE those that have less understanding. Why isn't God like that ?
I posted the first part of the fear of God because it is true and God is beyond awesome in His perfection and holy righteousness. This one is 'God is Love' I won't break it down and post it all, I am barely hanging on in my busy life. See, God is HOLY.......and that means He perfectly holds the attributes of all perfect goodness and power according to HIS OWN COUNSEL......this is His 'ball game' to make a very crude comparison. His power is beyond all thought, He keeps the protons, neutrons and electrons (and other particles, if that is what they are) in perfect harmony with great intense power and absolute knowledge and wisdom, with just His word........He creates out of nothing and holds existence in its form.
The Word of God is filled with extremely powerful and perplexing statements that cannot be brushed aside or reinterpreted to fit into a nice little boxy orthodox theological system. We should fall prostrate before Him in repentance, as it says in Proverbs 1, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. It is amazing He has allowed us to exist for the last 4,500 years after the flood, His will is to have many children experience His being for all eternity........and we can't brush aside the fact that He also has made vessels for the day of destruction.........look into this Word, God is love, and the devil has deceived the whole world into believing a 'metrosexual' Jesus who just overlooks and accepts all sin. He definitely provided and is the propitiation, and took the wrath of the Father (and Himself) for all sin for all men.
His sacrifice though, is not a 'license to sin' it was to absolutely do away with the legal punishment (which is eternal damnation) and to provide the pathway of spiritual power (Holy Spirit power) to overcome sin in the believer and actually live in accordance with God's holiness.
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (1 John 4:8)
God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. (1 John 4:16)
Most people do not know love, because they do not know God (Psalm 10:4; 14:1-3; Matthew 7:13-14), and are therefore incapable of loving in any kind of godly way (Jeremiah 13:23; Romans 3:10-18; 14:23; Titus 3:3). God is the defining factor in a proper understanding of what is love, because God is love. If you do not know God (Galatians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:8), you will not understand love, for the Lord is love. Therefore, if you do not understand (Ephesians 4:17-18), or you reject what is revealed in this report about God and love, it is indicative of your lost state (John 8:47; John 17:3; 1 John 4:6). May the Lord have mercy, and may you come to know the God of love.
I. God Is Patient (1 Corinthians 13:4).
In its first definition of love, 1 Corinthians 13:4 defines God (Love) as One who "suffers long" (NKJV). The Lord suffers? Yes, in His love, He suffers long. Jesus said,
I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! (Luke 12:49)
The Almighty Holy God loves justice (Psalm 37:28; 99:4) and hates those who do evil (Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 5:5-6; 11:5; 78:59; 106:40; Proverbs 6:16-19). "God is angry with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11), and if they do not repent,
He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready. He also prepares for Himself instruments of death; He makes His arrows into fiery shafts. (Psalm 7:12-13)
He prepares to destroy them. But, in the meantime, He suffers long with them and continues to make,
His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5:45).
He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, and vegetation for the service of man, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine that makes glad the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengthens man's heart. (Psalm 104:14-15)
These all wait for You, that You may give them their food in due season. What You give them they gather in; You open Your hand, they are filled with good. (Psalm 104:27-28)
God loves His enemies (Romans 5:8-10). He loves those whom He hates (Psalm 5:5-6; John 3:16; Romans 3:10-18). He is extremely patient towards evil men (e.g. Nehemiah 9:30). He has even been crushed by wicked men (Ezekiel 6:9). He suffers long with them (Romans 2:4), but not indefinitely.
You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust. (Psalm 104:29; see also Luke 16:19-31)
For man also does not know his time: Like fish taken in a cruel net, like birds caught in a snare, so the sons of men are snared in an evil time, when it falls suddenly upon them. (Ecclesiastes 9:12)
God is patient, but His patience has an end; and He chooses when that end will be.
Our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. (Psalm 115:3)
Finally, the Lord is particularly patient with believers, as 2 Peter 3:9 says.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9, NKJV; NAS "patient toward you")
Now I don't really know these guys who's stuff I've been posting........but what has struck me as good is the reluctance to box God into a rythmetized systemetized theological box and just let the Word mean what it says........we know in part, like seeing through a glass darkly.........but God is absolutely concrete on a lot of stuff that we can understand, like sin and hell and His Sovereignty and His love, judgement..........and Jesus our Lord who took away our sin..........if we believe and keep on believing till the end.....with evidence of His saving grace, the fruit of the Spirit. We are so easily deceived, we are told to examine ourselves to see if we are truly 'in the faith'.....a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.....you know, True Jesus salvation will rock your world, you will change.........sin will bother you deep down, you will be aware. It's like a light was switched on.......it's like you're 'sensitized' to everything both good and bad......you see in the spirit clearly, ........and satan will try to drag you back down into the mire and sometimes he succeeds but you repent and rise from the miry pit....and the only thing is Jesus's Word the Bible and seeing the deep things of God and understanding in your core He is Holy and coming, and you're His child, you feel His presence....but not always, as you struggle with your sin and letting Him have all of you......even the secret places.....He already knows all of you, it is good to surrender to the Lord Jesus and let Him reign.
I might sing a song now, but for sure I am fading away from this toy, and will probably go away forever soon
You describe God initially as beyond perfection and righteousness. You state
"He perfectly holds the attributes of all perfect goodness and power according to HIS OWN COUNSEL......this is His 'ball game' to make a very crude comparison. His power is beyond all thought, He keeps the protons, neutrons and electrons (and other particles, if that is what they are) in perfect harmony with great intense power and absolute knowledge and wisdom, with just His word........He creates out of nothing and holds existence in its form.
The Word of God is filled with extremely powerful and perplexing statements"
You also state "God loves His enemies (Romans 5:8-10). He loves those whom He hates" you also state "God is patient, but His patience has an end; and He chooses when that end will be. Our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. (Psalm 115:3) Finally, the Lord is particularly patient with believers.
You state "True Jesus salvation will rock your world, you will change.........sin will bother you deep down, you will be aware. It's like a light was switched on".
and go on and on to describe a moody inconsistent old man by what appears to be bits and pieces that contradict themselves..
BUT, SIN BOTHERS me TODAY without Christ ! It bothers me DEEP DOWN ! (Without this God you describe or Christ), and when I see it, I address it ! I live by the rules towards OTHERS here on earth..
Yet this magnificent order and omnipotent supreme being that reigns control doesn't answer my calls. Guess he's too busy !
What bothers me, is when putting all you have typed together and trying to formulate this God you present based upon your quotes Songslinger, you've presented a schizy parent that the kids fear because he doesn't love them enough to communicate with them, or show them consistency in his behaviour.. You've presented essentially NOTHING that makes sense or shows ANYTHING more than the God YOU believe in is a self-absorbed egotistical moody emotionally distraught impatient old man who judges us today based on the behaviour of what happened thousands of years ago, and that's LUDICROUS ! Given the virtues and adjectives you first use to describe who God is. When reading from the beginning to end of your recent post, it appears that a person can show you quite a few contradictory statements side-by-side, and if the person states "Hey it's Gods word", you'll not question it... You aren't seeing how bizarre some of the analogies you've used in sequence are because you read it in the bible.
I'm not a robot.. I have to make some decisions based on my own.. If I open a page of the bible, and decypher what is stated as "Kaplan this is God using numerals to tell you jump off the Golden Gate Bridge", I'm not going to do it despite HOW convincing what I read appears !
I have been given a head to do at least SOME reasoning with ! In fact AS PRESENTED, you have effectively cancelled out any "Goodness" and "Love" your God has, by citing his emotionally weak behaviour, behaviour that even a MALE HUMAN should not display ! This God you present, is VERY VERY confused Songslinger ! In fact, he is so erratic in his nature and emotional constitution, that he's a danger and constant threat to those that don't escape his whimsical nature considering his unlimited power and knowledge. Where have you shown me "God loves me" ? Such TOTAL conditional love is much less than what one would accept from a human parent, because human parents even know if you lose patience you don't take it out on the kids, you REASON ! But the God you present is ABOVE human reason and can do whatever he so chooses, and you vindicate this by saying "because he's God" which is EXACTLY the problem I have with irrational God belief.. Not blind faith mind you HOWEVER if the blind faith is towards a tyrant such as Hitler ? This happens because people learn NEVER QUESTION, or are told this and accept it !!! The God you've presented is a moody tyrant and nothing beyond, and you accept that..You've presented total confusion lumped into "Because he's God, that's why"
You have displayed I God that keeps his children dancing by shooting their feet. But the kids aren't dancing because they LIKE to dance and have been shown the artform they can appreciate, they are dancing because they are in a constant state of panic and can't stay still..
Yet you believe you have presented a "God of Love" :( I wish DCF would do something about this parent you describe !
He has answered you Steven, if you are truly bothered by your sin, you would know that God will not let it go with a whimsical attitude.
How can God keep all existence in this present form with all its perfect grandeur like stars a million times bigger than our sun, and other celestial bodies with power unfathomable in extent, in order and obeying the physical laws He has fashioned for matter.....How can He keep the multitude of creation in line while letting us (another, grander part of His creation) get away with sinning against His Holy character.....He would be unrighteous against His own self.
Christ is the new complete perfect once for all sacrifice and covenant.....no more bulls and goats (which couldn't for real take away sins).
The God I present is the the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as presented in the scriptures. You have to make a decision regarding Him, it is all written in the scriptures.
You can mock and call Him names and bring Him to your lowly way of reasoning, but He is not mocked, He will do His pleasure, which is right and just. Whatever a man sows, that will he reap.
God has laid out just who He is (holy, just, loving) and what He requires from His creation (holiness, justice, charity) this is the time of God's special favor, Jesus has come and told us to repent and to pray for our enemies and ask God to bless them and forgive them. This time will come to an end, then the angel will preach, then the end will come. Now while the Lord can still be found all should repent and be cleansed, born again by the Spirit of Jesus to eternal life.
Songslinger wrote:He has answered you Steven, if you are truly bothered by your sin, you would know that God will not let it go with a whimsical attitude.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I was attempting to convey. I stated, "Sin bothers me TODAY, and I recognise sin" as an Agnostic individual; Both in myself, yet also in others, and I do the best I can (given my limited control )to deal with sin that to me is undesputably sin. I DON'T feel that my desire to keep a distance from God as you've presented him to me is "the Sin". I don't understand what you mean regarding "Yield to him", "Let him in", especially since according to you he created me. Assuming such, WHY did he cut me off ? Why did he create me and abandon me ? Assuming God showed himself to me, I would see HIM.. Yet what I see around me doesn't equate to the God you are describing what-so-ever.. The world around me doesn't show me what you are stating God is by any stretch of my imagination. Let alone faith.. There's just no correlation, no reasoning.. and why the game of hide and Go seek he plays ? At least if it was duck duck goose, I'd feel him smack me on the head..
Songslinger wrote:How can God keep all existence in this present form with all its perfect grandeur like stars a million times bigger than our sun, and other celestial bodies with power unfathomable in extent, in order and obeying the physical laws He has fashioned for matter.....How can He keep the multitude of creation in line while letting us (another, grander part of His creation) get away with sinning against His Holy character.....He would be unrighteous against His own self.
Nah, we are peons compared to his celestial bodies and stars that are a million times larger that you believe he can keep in control today, how does he do it ? Does he scare them into proper orbit too ? He controls them, why is he doing such a rotten job keeping me in control ? I'm a lightweight. If God can keep big stars and matter together he can EASILY keep me righteous assuming I'm a grand part of his creation. This amazing God with such powers and knowledge seems to have other interests besides my well-being.
Songslinger wrote:Christ is the new complete perfect once for all sacrifice and covenant.....no more bulls and goats (which couldn't for real take away sins).
We must live in different milleniums, I can't experience something or consider it "recent" assuming it happened 1950 years before I was born. God MUST understand why I can't understand he exists.. Especially considering I don't have his phone number, yet he's got mine.
Regarding your statement: "You can mock and call Him names and bring Him to your lowly way of reasoning, but He is not mocked, He will do His pleasure, which is right and just. Whatever a man sows, that will he reap."
God gave me this lowly way of reasoning, doesn't he remember ? I'm not calling him names. I haven't a clue what to call him, or where to face when I'm trying to call him. I'm mocking the messengers, afraid to have anything to do with the Deity they represent as "god", yet personally, I know no God, I never experienced anything
Posted by Steven_Kaplan on June 30, 2008 at 6:25 PM
Having had some exposure to Orthodox Jewish superstition, I found many I got along with called themselves "Recovering Catholics" and actually had it much worse ! Not too different in many ways. Any thoughts regarding Orthodox religion ? Assuming you escaped how tough was it ? Did you completely break-free ? I saw many collegemates suffering because as males afraid to "put out" due to punishment from God, their girlfriends were looking elsewhere. What a horrible thing for a male in his prime to have to deal with IMHO..
Fear of God sucks !
(this is my own quote, and I doubt it'll likely make it into any profound philosophical literature)
I'm not going to be participating much in this thread, I do however wish to read responses and hear others feelings. How many felt paralyzed by the God they were exposed to ? Some parents DID in fact say to their children things such as "Everytime you masturbate God kills a kitten".
(Good thing I've trained this VOX software to type because I went blind awhile back) Sorry cat lovers, I couldn't allow my life to become total hell. Some survive orthodox religion, it obviously wasn't for me. My exposure btw wasn't even direct, just all the relatives outside my immediate family, but even THAT was too much
Edited on June 30, 2008 at 6:32 PM Quote
Reply by scarlettohallGOLD on June 30, 2008 at 11:26 PM
I'm guessing you're referring to Eastern Orthodox?
I was born and raised Catholic and I'm still Catholic. I can't say I ever felt paralyzed. I've never been afraid of God. I was always taught that God loved me no matter what. I was never told awful things like that...that God would do something bad if I sinned. NEVER!!
Quote
Reply by peachygurlADMIN on June 30, 2008 at 11:30 PM
Kappy,
My path of spiritual pursuit was nothing even close to orthodox. However, in that journey, I have encountered many, studied and investigated one form of orthodox system of belief or another.
Most of the time, people tend to think that orthodox means either something like Catholic, Orthodox Jew or even Eastern Orthodox. It is a bit broader in my limited experience. Any system of beliefs that is rigidly codified has the earmarks of orthodoxy. This includes Islam, Sikh, some forms of Buddhist and many other systems of belief. This doesn't even touch on various groups of people that are outside the mainstream of religion that have very rigid beliefs. Those include groups of people that even go so far as to raise babies for black market trade. YES! They have a very strict religious code also.
What I found common in all groups that have the foundation of orthodox systems is the one thing you point to. FEAR! That is not to say that ALL orthodox systems promote fear. However, it is extremely common as a manipulation tool to get people to adhere to the tenets of that set of beliefs.
Now since the only things I'm really afraid of is my mama when she is mad and snakes, those systems did not work well for me at all. I even spent several years involved with a Bible cult. When I finally challenged the leadership on precepts they were teaching, I was told to get out. HA! They were not the first to give me the boot. At last count, I have been tossed from the cult and 5 other churches.
In none of those situations was I ever belligerent or rude or nasty. I asked questions and the leaders of the organized groups got a lil on the ticked off side when I would insist they back up what they said. Telling me I have to "have faith" or "believe more" just didn't fly as an explanation.
I find it horribly sad that religion is foisted upon people by the equivalent of emotional blackmail. Think of all those poor kittens! Uff!!! I do think presenting the foundations of caring for each other, playing nice in the sandbox and taking naps is a very good start for instilling a respect for religion in a child. To promulgate fear makes a travesty of what religion is supposed to be all about.
That's my 2 cents worth and then some.
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 1, 2008 at 4:41 AM
WOW, this is the first time I've ever heard this from a person who's Catholic. I think that's great. I was talking to a few women who were "New Advent" Catholic, and to be honest, it sounded pretty nice.
Peachy, yep, fear was the common denominator that all shared and exchanged around me.
Quote
Reply by scarlettohallGOLD on July 1, 2008 at 11:00 AM
There are more of us out there. :)
I think the problem is that many people are ignorant of what the church really teaches. So then you have teachers and parents telling kids some crazy kind of stuff..then add in others that interpret the bible in whatever way they want to and that causes confusion. Then you're left not knowing what to believe or think. ;)
Edited on July 1, 2008 at 11:01 AM Quote
offline
Reply by danacainGOLD on July 7, 2008 at 1:32 PM
You are correct: Fear of God sucks!!
I grew up Pentecostal and yes, I lived in constant fear of being sent to hell if I sinned. But as I got older and began to read the Bible and pray for myself, the Lord revealed Himself to me, and my fear of Him disappeared
Think about it for a minute. If there is nothing I could ever do on my own to be good enough to get to Heaven, doesn't it stand to follow that there is nothing bad enough I could do to get sent to Hell?
I wrote about it here if you would like to know more:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2034/MyThoughts.htm
For me this sums up God's grace very nicely and it changed my life forever.
“There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. 1 John 4:18
be blessed!
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 7, 2008 at 2:04 PM
OF COURSE ! and this is MY whole take on the biggest problem in with the way TOO many religions are presented ! A MASS of contradictions which DOES in fact make the deity look sadistic !
ie.. the all or none polarization God/Satan Heaven/Hell, yet aren't most of us forced to realize the world is neither black or white but GREY ? Why would God refuse to see this ? Heaven is such an elitist place ? Doesn't sound like a place I'd be comfortable anyway.. I'm not going to be free to think for myself up there either obviously !! Sort've a "Stepford" place ?
He gives us minds to question, reason, and bodies to experience pleasure and than damns us to hell when we need to find pleasure amongst this hellish existence here on earth, or experiment with our bodies going thru normal human phases (according to our development that is). This is analogous to asking, "What kind god chops hands off when kids reach into the cookie jar" ?
and the biggest thing that doesn't make sense to me.. Why does a perfect deity have the appearance of an elderly man with an ego and a polarized all/none personality ? Why would he allow ANY of his creations to go to hell ? How about other religious beliefs ? According to the pentacost (as I recall) others in different locations go to hell for their beliefs since they aren't among "The Chosen" ? What's with this horrible EGO this God has. To me God was clearly quite sadistic, and likely in his 50's going thru Andropause during the time he made all these god awful rules :)
Clearly, to me.. Man in not having answers to the scariest questions created another parent who exists "out there" where-ever there might be ! Along with all the quirks and superstitious concepts of the times that only man has ! People as social beings need rules, law and discipline and answers. So much so, that I feel they'll go to extremes to create them !
It's sad that for some, it takes a punitory idea to keep the species :Good: but does orthodox religion even accomplish that ? I think not (personally that is). It triggers unfair bias thru fear too.
Edited on July 7, 2008 at 2:21 PM Quote
Reply by Songslinger on July 7, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Hey Steven, check this out.......far from false orthodoxy, nonetheless the truth. Modern false ecumenical christianity downplays the fear of God thus keeping the people from truly knowing God. But it is all written in His Word. You will find all the answers to your questions when you begin to fear Him ;) and because you (we) are evil we do not know when He will visit His wrath upon us......I suggest fear and repentance is the order of the day, that He might fill you with His joy. Broad is the way to destruction, and many go there.
Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. (Psalm 33:8)
You, Yourself, are to be feared; and who may stand in Your presence when once You are angry? (Psalm 76:7)
I know that whatever God does, it shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, and nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him. (Ecclesiastes 3:14)
I. Fools Abound
Without the true fear of God, one is left knowing nothing (as in 1 Timothy 6:4), because the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7). A person does not even begin to have knowledge if they do not fear God, as it is written, "fools hate knowledge" (Proverbs 1:22). Without the true fear of God, a person is a fool, because the true fear of God is also the beginning of wisdom (Psalm 111:10). A person does not even begin to have wisdom if they do not fear God, as it is written, "fools despise wisdom and instruction" (Proverbs 1:7). The sad reality of all of this is, such is the miserable state of mankind. They are fools (Psalm 14:1-3).
There is no fear of God before their eyes. (Romans 3:18)
This is why, "The hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live" (Ecclesiastes 9:3), because they do not fear God (Psalm 36:1).
II. False Fear
To make matters worse, "Christian" false teachers divert people away from the true fear of God, with the result that people continue to be fools, and this is horrible; because the legacy of fools will be eternal shame (i.e. hell, Proverbs 3:35; Jeremiah 23:40; Daniel 12:2). As there is nothing new under the Sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9), it is like the Israelites of old. As it is written,
Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men, therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work among this people, a marvelous work and a wonder; for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish. (Isaiah 29:13-14)
The wisdom of the "wise" men has perished in our day. A graphic example of this is a book written by Randy Peterson and David New. The title reads, "How To Fear God Without Being Afraid Of Him" (Victor Books, copyright 1994). This title is downright stupid! It is like saying, "How To Love God Without Loving Him."
In this book, these authors write,
It's this message - "God will get you" - that runs repeatedly in the minds of many people in this world. They fear an abusive God, one who will punish them without warning for unspecified sins. A personal relationship with such a God would be dangerous, if it were possible at all. (p. 100)
Randy and David write as if God is not like this, but the truth is, He is! He will most certainly punish without warning for unspecified sins! Jesus warned of this in Luke 13.
There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:1-5)
Jesus points out in the two incidents mentioned that the people God killed were not worse than others. In other words, there were no terrible specific sins these people were guilty of. God just came along, without warning, and killed them (Deuteronomy 32:39), and Jesus warns the same is going to happen to you, if you don't repent.
Randy and David call this abusive. God calls it justice (Deuteronomy 32:4), as Paul wrote,
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. (Galatians 6:7; see also Numbers 32:23)
People have sown sin (Romans 3:23), and they will reap death (Romans 6:23; Revelation 21:8). God will make sure of it (Revelation 20:11-15).
If people did fear this "abusive God," as Randy and David claim, they would have a personal relationship with Him (Psalm 103:11-18; John 17:3). The problem is, they don't fear Him (Romans 3:18), and so they will forever know His wrath (as in Revelation 14:9-11).
Mr. Peterson's and Mr. New's deceit is a bit more obvious. But some are much more subtle than this.
Like John MacArthur, who says the right thing (Matthew 12:34), but then says the wrong thing, and by it brings destruction (2 Peter 2:1-3). MacArthur purports to teach a "holy terror" (The Love of God, p. 11; Successful Christian Parenting, p. 78), but his "holy terror" is not true holy terror, because in hypocrisy he also teaches "It is not referring to being afraid" (The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1771). In his commentary regarding Matthew 10:28 he writes,
. . . this fear is not that of terror or fright, but of reverential awe and honor. (The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, Matthew 8-15, copyright 1987; for more on MacArthur, see our report on MacArthur's Damning Doctrine)
This statement is insane (Ecclesiastes 9:3). Note Matthew 10:28, the verse MacArthur is commenting on:
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)
MacArthur says "not that of terror or fright" when considering "Him" who can "destroy both soul and body in hell"! That is much more terrifying and frightful than someone who can "kill the body but cannot kill the soul," and that could be a terrifying and frightful event! Yet, having "both soul and body" destroyed in hell, which means eternal torment (e.g. Revelation 14:11; 20:10), is eternally more terrifying and frightful! Simple faith in what Jesus said dictates that. Thus MacArthur reveals his unbelief in the word of God. MacArthur claims "this fear is not that of terror . . . ." His words are words of madness (Ecclesiastes 9:3) and empty (2 Peter 2:18).
Quote
Reply by Songslinger on July 7, 2008 at 3:22 PM
III. Why Fear God?
Because our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29; see also Isaiah 33:14)!
Anyone who knows God, knows fear means fear (i.e. to be afraid), especially when it comes to the Almighty. Because, both in His severity (Psalm 90:11) and in His goodness (Jeremiah 33:9; Luke 5:26; 7:16), He is terrifying.
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)
Be it good or evil (Isaiah 45:7 KJV), blessings or calamity (Lamentations 3:37-38 KJV), God is the creator of it all; and this is terrifying. As Job said,
He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does. For He performs what is appointed for me, and many such things are with Him. Therefore I am terrified at His presence; when I consider this, I am afraid of Him. For God made my heart weak, and the Almighty terrifies me. (Job 23:13-16)
God has the power, right, and will (according to what He sees fit, Psalm 115:3) to destroy your life (as in Job 1 & 2) or bless it (as in Job 42:10; James 5:11), to save you from eternal torment (Hebrews 7:25), or to burn you in hell forever (e.g. Jude 7).
Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it. (Deuteronomy 10:14)
And,
Whatever the Lord pleases He does, in heaven and in earth. (Psalm 135:6)
Bildad the Shuhite rightly said, "Dominion and fear belong to Him" (Job 25:1-2). It all belongs to Him (Psalm 24:1), every single soul belongs to Him (Ezekiel 18:4), and
He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Romans 9:18)
He creates vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath (Romans 9:21-23) and destines people to either eternal life or eternal torment completely apart from anything they may or may not do (Romans 9:11), but solely based upon His will (Romans 9:16, 18), His pleasure (Psalm 115:3; Ephesians 1:5).
There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. (James 4:12)
And this is the terrifying truth. So Psalm 130 says,
If You, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? But there is forgiveness with You, that You may be feared. (Psalm 130:3-4)
Mercy is only found within the power and will of the Almighty.
Our God is the God of salvation, and to God the Lord belongs escape from death. (Psalm 68:20)
To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, (Daniel 9:9)
Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! (Revelation 19:1)
"Therefore men fear Him" (Job 37:24), because they know therein lies their only hope (Acts 4:12). For,
The Lord takes pleasure in those who fear Him, in those who hope in His mercy. (Psalm 147:11; see also Luke 1:50; Acts 10:35)
But,
The face of the Lord is against those who do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth, (Psalm 34:16)
and to destroy them forever in hell (Isaiah 66:24; Revelation 20:10-15; 21:8). Thus, David wrote,
In fear of You I will worship toward Your holy temple. (Psalm 5:7)
The song of the Lamb asks,
Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? (Revelation 15:4)
Only the fool (Proverbs 13:16; 14:16).
Quote
Reply by Songslinger on July 7, 2008 at 3:23 PM
IV. True Fear Trembles
In Hosea 13:1 the Lord describes Ephraim as doing well when he "spoke, trembling," and so are we, if we are literally trembling before God. True Biblical fear demands trembling, because, in truth, God is so fearful it actually causes literal trembling before Him.
Daniel writes of King Nebuchadnezzar,
And because of the majesty that [God] gave him, all peoples, nations, and languages trembled and feared before him. Whomever he wished, he executed; whomever he wished, he kept alive; whomever he wished, he set up; and whomever he wished, he put down. (Daniel 5:19)
The people in the days of King Nebuchadnezzar had the sense to rightly tremble and fear before a mighty king (Proverbs 24:21; Romans 13:7). As God does, Nebuchadnezzar did whatever he pleased, as a true king can (Ecclesiastes 8:1-2). Therefore, if the people of Daniel's day rightly and literally trembled and feared before an earthly king, a man in whose breath was in his nostrils (Isaiah 2:22), how much more should we tremble and fear before,
He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Timothy 6:15; see also Psalm 103:19)?
God is the eternal King (Psalm 10:16; 29:10), who will execute whomever He wishes (Deuteronomy 32:39), keep alive whomever He wishes (1 Samuel 2:6), set up whomever He wishes (e.g. Job 12:23), and put down whomever He wishes (e.g. Luke 1:52).
Not only that, but as the King of all the earth works in His creation (Psalm 47:7), His work provokes fearful trembling before Him. Elihu, who knew the fear of God and trembled before Him, said,
Behold, God is great, and we do not know Him; nor can the number of His years be discovered. For He draws up drops of water, which distill as rain from the mist, which the clouds drop down and pour abundantly on man. Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds, the thunder from His canopy? Look, He scatters his light upon it, and covers the depths of the sea. For by these He judges the peoples; He gives food in abundance. He covers His hands with lightning, and commands it to strike. His thunder declares it, the cattle also, concerning the rising storm. At this also my heart trembles, and leaps from its place. (Job 36:26-37:1)
God is indeed great, and His works in creation are awesome.
He does great things which we cannot comprehend. (Job 37:5)
And this should cause fearful trembling before Him, as the King of glory (Psalm 24:7-10) Himself says,
"Do you not fear Me?" says the Lord. "Will you not tremble at My presence, who have placed the sand as the bound of the sea, by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass beyond it? And though its waves toss to and fro, yet they cannot prevail; though they roar, yet they cannot pass over it. But this people has a defiant and rebellious heart; they have revolted and departed. They do not say in their heart, 'Let us now fear the Lord our God, who gives rain, both the former and the latter, in its season. He reserves for us the appointed weeks of the harvest.' Your iniquities have turned these things away, and your sins have withheld good from you." (Jeremiah 5:22-25)
The King of Israel (Isaiah 44:6) Himself appeals to His work in creation and calls the Israelites to note it and fear, but their "iniquities have turned these things away."
Jeremiah wrote,
Inasmuch as there is none like You, O Lord (You are great, and Your name is great in might), who would not fear You, O King of the nations? For this is Your rightful due. For among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like You. (Jeremiah 10:6-7)
There is none like the King of the Jews (Mark 15:2).
For the Lord is great and greatly to be praised; He is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the peoples are idols, but the Lord made the heavens. (Psalm 96:4-5; see also 1 Chronicles 16:25; Psalm 48:1)
Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and His greatness is unsearchable. (Psalm 145:3)
King Darius, after seeing God's awesome mercy towards Daniel (a Jew, Romans 2:28-29), made this decree:
I make a decree that in every dominion of my kingdom men must tremble and fear before the God of Daniel. For He is the living God, and steadfast forever; His kingdom is the one which shall not be destroyed, and His dominion shall endure to the end. He delivers and rescues, and He works signs and wonders in heaven and on earth, who has delivered Daniel from the power of the lions. (Daniel 6:26-27)
Darius rightly decreed that men should tremble and fear before the God of Daniel, because this is the same decree the King of the saints (Revelation 15:3) has made.
The Lord of hosts, Him you shall hallow; let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread. (Isaiah 8:13)
Tremble, O earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob. (Psalm 114:7; see also1 Chronicles 16:30; Psalm 96:9; 99:1; Joel 2:1; Ephesians 6:5; Philippians 2:12)
The Psalmist wrote this of the everlasting King (Jeremiah 10:10):
My flesh trembles for fear of You, and I am afraid of Your judgments. (Psalm 119:120)
This statement is made in the context of overwhelming love for God's word (e.g. Psalm 119:47-48, 97, 113, 119, 127, 159, 163-165, 167). Thus, it is made in the context of overwhelming love for God (Mark 12:30), since God and His word are one (John 1:1). Therefore, loving God and being afraid of Him are congruous.
Likewise, the fear of the Lord and the joy of the Lord, tremble together. As it is written,
Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. (Psalm 2:11)
In the true fear of God, fear and trembling and rejoicing in the Lord (Philippians 4:4) are harmonious as well.
Finally, it is the godly who find it in their hearts (Psalm 65:4) to tremble before His word (e.g. Ezra 9:4; 10:3), as the Lord says,
But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word. (Isaiah 66:2, see also verse 5)
Quote
Reply by Songslinger on July 7, 2008 at 3:24 PM
V. True Fear Turns
It is an abomination to fools to depart from evil. (Proverbs 13:19)
Therefore, those who claim to fear God, yet continue in their sin, are fools and liars (1 John 2:4), as it is written,
He who walks in his uprightness fears the Lord, but he who is perverse in his ways despises Him. (Proverbs 14:2)
There is no way someone who fears God can continue in sin unrepentantly, because,
By the fear of the Lord one departs from evil. (Proverbs 16:6)
Those who fear God repent, and they love correction (Proverbs 12:1; 15:5); because they know it is the way of life (Proverbs 6:23).
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death. (Proverbs 14:27)
The wicked, those who don't fear God (Romans 3:8) love death (Proverbs 8:36), hate correction (Proverbs 1:22; 12:1; 13:18; 15:10), and don't turn from their evil ways (e.g. Proverbs 1:30; Isaiah 9:13; Jeremiah 15:7; 36). The godly, those who tremble at His word, do (Psalm 141:5), because,
Though a sinner does evil a hundred times, and his days are prolonged, yet I surely know that it will be well with those who fear God, who fear before Him. But it will not be well with the wicked; nor will he prolong his days, which are as a shadow, because he does not fear before God. (Ecclesiastes 8:12-13)
There may indeed be wicked people who "fear the Lord" (e.g. 2 Kings 17:24-41), but the truth is, if they turn not from their evil deeds (Proverbs 16:6), it is evident they really don't fear Him (as in 2 Kings 17:34); but instead, they renounce Him. For God is in none of their thoughts (Psalm 10:3-4).
Moreover, there is indeed an ungodly fear seen in Scripture (e.g. Genesis 3:10; 18:15; Mark 11:18; Revelation 6:15-17). Any fear in this context, that is, in disobedience to God, is simply ungodly, and it is not true godly fear of God.
Demons are noted as those who tremble (James 2:19), and they rightly do so, for God is fearful; but of course, they have no hope of salvation (Matthew 8:29; Hebrews 2:16).
VI. True Fear Hates
A Biblical definition of the fear of the Lord is found in Proverbs 8:13.
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil. (Proverbs 8:13)
Wisdom continues in Proverbs 8:13 stating that she hates pride, arrogance, the evil way, and the perverse mouth. She hates the actual mouth, which, of course, is connected to a body, a person.
The Lord declares,
These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren. (Proverbs 6:16-19)
A proud look, a lying tongue, hands, a heart, and feet, are all parts of a human being, and God says here He hates them.
Evil people are evil. As God does not separate the parts of the body from these people, so God does not separate the sin from the sinner until He saves them. And so, Proverbs 6 continues and clearly declares that the Lord hates a false witness and one who sows discord. These are particular kinds of people the Lord hates.
Actually, God hates "all who do evil" (Psalm 5:5, NLT; see also Psalm 5:6; 11:5), and so do those who fear Him.
David, who feared God (2 Samuel 23:3/1 Kings 15:5), expressed this godly hate very clearly in Psalm 139.
Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. (Psalm 139:21-22; see also Psalm 26:5; 31:6; 119:113)
They are enemies indeed. Those who do not fear God hate those who do, but their hatred is ungodly and evil. They hate God (Romans 1:28, 30), and they hate His people. As it is written,
An unjust man is an abomination to the righteous, and he who is upright in the way is an abomination to the wicked. (Proverbs 29:27)
The hatred is mutual, but one is justified. The other is not.
Quote
Reply by Songslinger on July 7, 2008 at 3:25 PM
VII. True Fear Is Confident
In the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence, and His children will have a place of refuge. (Proverbs 14:26; see also Psalm 112:7-8)
The true fear of God does not produce cowardice, but rather boldness, as Proverbs 28:1 says,
The wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion.
Cowards go to hell (Revelation 21:8), but the righteous, i.e. those who fear God, are in no way cowards, but are rather bold as a lion. God fearing people are able to live out serious confidence even in the face of horrifying circumstances. As the fear of the Lord instructs,
My son, let them not depart from your eyes - keep sound wisdom and discretion; so they will be life to your soul and grace to your neck. Then you will walk safely in your way, and your foot will not stumble. When you lie down, you will not be afraid; yes, you will lie down and your sleep will be sweet. Do not be afraid of sudden terror, nor of trouble from the wicked when it comes; for the Lord will be your confidence, and will keep your foot from being caught. (Proverbs 3:21-26)
Sleeping is a very vulnerable time. Someone could sneak upon you and kill you (as in Judges 4:21 or 2 Samuel 4:5-12). But those who fear God fear not. They have sweet sleep. They have peace (Isaiah 26:3; Philippians 4:6-7), and have confidence even in the face of sudden terror or trouble from the wicked. And, even if they fail in this, they turn back to it. As David wrote,
Whenever I am afraid, I will trust in You. In God (I will praise His word), in God I have put my trust; I will not fear. What can flesh do to me? (Psalm 56:3-4)
The answer? Nothing. Nothing that God Himself has not already decreed (Isaiah 46:10). For,
The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them. (Psalm 34:7)
So those who fear the Lord have great confidence (Proverbs 14:26), even in the face of the most important and most potentially horrifying time, that is, the eternal judgment of God. Those who fear God have great boldness (Ephesians 3:12; Hebrews 4:14-16; 10:19). As 1 John 4:17-18 declares,
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
Those who fear God believe in His mercy (Psalm 103:11-18). They believe in His forgiveness (John 3:16), and they know they have eternal life (1 John 5:13). They have boldness concerning "the day of judgment," because they do not fear condemnation (Romans 8:1). They do not fear torment. They look forward to their reward (Revelation 22:12-14), because they know God is; and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6; 9:27-28).
The fear cast out in 1 John 4:17-18 is the fear that involves torment (verse 18). It is the fear of condemnation. It is not the fear of God that is cast out. If it was, wisdom and knowledge would be cast out (Job 28:28)! No, it is actually the fear of God that casts out other fears, like the fear of man (Isaiah 8:11-13; Psalm 27:1; Proverbs 29:25), cowardice (2 Timothy 1:7), and the fear of death (Romans 8:15; Hebrews 2:14-15), which includes the fear of condemnation (the second death, Revelation 21:8).
Those who are afraid of God fear the one who "after He has killed, has the power to cast into hell" (Luke 14:4-5). Therefore, they conduct their time on this earth in fear (Romans 11:20-22; 1 Peter 1:17) being greatly motivated by this terror (2 Corinthians 5:11) to set their hope completely on the grace of God (1 Peter 1:13). They are diligent to enter His rest (Hebrews 4:11), because they know there is no other way to escape the wrath of the Almighty (John 3:36), except to fear Him and trust in His salvation (Psalm 119:166). For this is man's all, as it is written:
Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man's all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)
Job, a man who was terrified of God (Job 23:13-16), had this confidence that comes with the fear of God. He spoke of it in Job 19:25-27.
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!
Job longed for the day he would see God. He had no shame concerning that day, but rather great confidence, like David who wrote in Psalm 61,
I will abide in Your tabernacle forever. (Psalm 61:4)
This is the confidence of all who fear Him (Psalm 65:5). Since they fear Him (Luke 12:4-5), they need not fear (Luke 12:4-7; see also Exodus 20:18-20; 1 Samuel 12:20-25; Matthew 17:5-7).
VIII. True Fear Is Content
In this confidence that comes with the true fear of God, there is great satisfaction as well.
The fear of the Lord leads to life, and he who has it will abide in satisfaction; he will not be visited with evil. (Proverbs 19:23)
Years ago Mick Jagger sang, "I can't get no satisfaction." It was because he did not fear God (Romans 3:18). Many years ago King David feared God and he sang,
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. (Psalm 23:1)
David knew he would not lack. He knew he would abide in satisfaction, because he knew the Lord would never forsake Him (Hebrews 13:5).
Even though "the eyes of man are never satisfied" (Proverbs 27:20), those who fear the Lord find contentment in what little or much they have (Ephesians 5:5; Hebrews 13:5). They are satisfied with His goodness (Psalm 36:7-8; 37:19; 63:5; Proverbs 14:14), because they love the Lord and hate their possessions (Luke 14:33; 16:13).
Quote
Reply by Songslinger on July 7, 2008 at 3:25 PM
IX. True Fear Is Wise
Since the fear of God is wisdom (Job 28:28), it is no wonder that those who fear God are taught by God, and therefore have the wisdom of God. Psalm 25 says,
Who is the man that fears the Lord? Him shall He teach in the way He chooses. (Psalm 25:12)
Those who fear God have an anointing from the Lord (1 John 2:27) and receive special instruction from Him. As it is written:
The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him, and He will show them His covenant. (Psalm 25:12-14)
X. True Fear Is The Word of God
In the context of the law of the Lord, the testimony of the Lord, the statutes of the Lord, the commandment of the Lord, and the judgments of the Lord, Psalm 19:9 has, the fear of the Lord. All of these are synonyms for the word of God (e.g. see Psalm 119), including "the fear of the Lord" (Psalm 19:9).
The fear of the Lord is not only the beginning of wisdom and knowledge (Proverbs 1:7; 9:10), it is wisdom (Job 28:28). Christ is wisdom (1 Corinthians 1:24, 30), and Christ is the word of God (John 1:1, 14; Revelation 19:13). Therefore, if Christ is wisdom and the word of God, so the fear of the Lord is wisdom and the word of God. Proverbs 15:33 says, "The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom." That well describes the word of God as well, as Paul wrote,
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16)
Also, Proverbs 13:13 says,
He who despises the word will be destroyed, but he who fears the commandment will be rewarded.
Fearing the commandment and fearing God are one and the same.
XI. True Fear Lasts Forever
Some might argue that once someone comes to know the Lord, they no longer fear Him, but this would be a lie. Proverbs 23:17 says,
Do not let your heart envy sinners, but be zealous for the fear of the Lord all the day.
"All the day" dictates continually. As Proverbs 28:14 says, "How blessed is the man who fears always" (NAS). Also, the Psalmist in Psalm 119 writes,
Establish Your word to Your servant, who is devoted to fearing You. (Psalm 119:38)
Fearing God is a way of life. It is not something that is initially done and then cast off (a perversion of 1 John 4:17-18), as Psalm 72 illustrates:
They shall fear You as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations. (Psalm 72:5)
In the future, people will fear God (e.g. Psalm 67:7; 102:15; Isaiah 29:23; Hosea 11:10-11; Micah 7:17), and for all eternity people will fear the Lord, because,
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever. (Psalm 19:9)
link
Quote
offline
Reply by danacainGOLD on July 7, 2008 at 3:26 PM
Okay, let me put it like this:
Do you believe in the concept of cause and effect? Do you believe you should be able to do whatever you want without consequence?
If you touch a hot stove would you consider it unfair if you got burned?
If you played in traffic would you think it an injustice if you got run over?
If you steal wantonly do you think it wrong to be punished according to the law?
Most likely you, like me, think those are apt consequences to those actions. That's why we teach our children not to touch hot things, play in traffic or take things that don't belong to us.
You asked: "What kind god chops hands off when kids reach into the cookie jar" ?
You have free will; you can chose to do good or you can chose to do evil. You ask what kind of God punishes people for finding pleasure in this hellish existence; the answer to that lies in the heart of the person finding pleasure.
Some people find pleasure in causing harm to others. Do those people deserve to find punishment for their crimes?
Of course they do.
But you ask: what about people who steal to feed their families? Do you think God will punish them?
Do you know the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery who was brought to Jesus? What did He do? Did he chop off her hand or did he stone her as her accusers wanted to do?
I think you know the answer. That story is a perfect example of the true nature of God and His mercy.
You seem to think that God is waiting around to punish us for every misdeed; and yes, I know the teachings of the traditional church do lean that way. When the church became little more than an extension of the government they used whatever means available to keep people in line. But you have to know that isn't a clear or legitimate representation of who God is or even what the Bible teaches. If you've studied the Bible and developed your own relationship with the Lord you know it's not true. You know who God is.
Each person has an obligation to learn who God is and not rely on the teachings of others. Because we know how flawed people can be. People often ascribe their own hangups to God and in the process reduce Him to little more than a petty, ego maniacal tyrant.
Pretty much the impression you have of Him, huh.
As for the concept of Hell--again; it is a misdirection on the part of church leaders to gain control of their populace. The modern concept of hell has very little to do with what the bible actually says on the subject.
Bear in mind, when it comes to the Bible, it is easy to take a few verses and twist them to suit whatever agenda you wish. I'm sure you'll agree with me on that. That's why it's imperative to read the Bible in context and to ask the Lord to reveal His intent to you.
The Bible is nothing more than words on paper without the Holy Spirit to interpret it.
First, let me say that God doesn't send anyone to hell. It doesn't happen. "Hell" is merely a continuation of one's rejection of God in this life.
I mean, if you reject God in this life you have no expectation of being accepted by Him in the next do you?
Of course not. Why would you?
I think atheists are mainly correct in their idea of the afterlife; that when you die you die and that's all there is to it. For those who reject God there simply will be nothing else; you will simply cease to exist. There's no eternal torture; no hellfire. God is not a sadist. And He never forces Himself.
He's not a rapist.
If you chose to reject God, if you chose to believe He doesn't exist, if you believe there is no afterlife, then for you there will be no afterlife.
It's that simple.
However, for those who believe, who are faithful in that belief, they receive eternal life.
You see, the opposite of eternal life is eternal death, and what do the dead know? Nothing. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust.
I'm sorry. I've gotten long winded. I'll stop now. If you wish to continue I'm happy to oblige..:)
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 8, 2008 at 3:11 AM
So you are stating that you believe this life without God is the extent of Hell ?
and those that believe have eternal life ? Eternal life where ? What would that be like ? Is that necessarily good ? What does "eternal life" mean ? What sensations would accompany such an existence ?
I think the problem is the western stigma of death. Perhaps death is ultimate peace. I don't understand the concept of Heaven and Hell.
Edited on July 8, 2008 at 3:13 AM Quote
offline
Reply by danacainGOLD on July 8, 2008 at 4:27 AM
According to scriptures, hell is simply another word for the grave. That's it. It simply means death.
Death in this life, and death eternally.
One could go as far as to say that according to scripture, if you do not have the Spirit of Christ in you, you are already dead spiritually and the forfeiture of your mortal life is merely a stage in the death process.
But I feel it's important to stress that there is no "eternal torment" for those who reject God. Those who reject God in this life are simply destroyed in the "Second Death".
At no point does Scripture promise eternal torment for any but the Devil and his false prophet.
What kind of sick, sadistic God gets his jollies off torturing people for all eternity? That image of God isn't in keeping with a God of mercy and justice. Eternal torment isn't justice.
Even for the worst person on earth who ever lived.
Eternal punishment however, means simply that you will be destroyed--forever. You won't receive eternal life because you don't want it. You'll be judged before God on simply whether you accept Christ and that's it; if the answer is no then you don't receive the gift of eternal life. (bear in mind that i speak solely from a Biblical perspective; as you well know other religions have their own take)
To those who receive eternal life, they get to go to "heaven".
Heaven is a difficult concept for many to grasp, but nearly every religion and culture has some concept of it. To me it is simply living eternally in the presence of God, without pain or sorrow or death.
As for what we will do there; no one knows. The bible says "no eye has seen no ear has heard"...so I imagine it's going to be pretty great.
If you would like me to post corresponding scripture regarding heaven and hell I'm happy to oblige.
When you see the concept of eternity in this light, the Orthodox view of hell seems pretty silly. The church paints God as a petty tyrant who's hiding behind every corner with a hammer waiting to strike. But that couldn't be further from the truth.
Quote
Reply by Songslinger on July 8, 2008 at 11:02 AM
you couldn't be any more wrong about God, hell and the scriptures. People will indeed suffer the flame of eternal fire, tormented in pain forever. You obviously don't know the God of the Bible and have no fear of Him.
Who knows the power of Your anger? For as the fear of You, so is Your wrath. (Psalm 90:11)
The Lord is known by the judgment He executes. (Psalm 9:16)
The reality of hell is the most horrifying, terror striking, fearful truth known to man. It encompasses the worst possible fear and the meanest conceivable existence, continual never-ending torture.
And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10).
Most men lie to themselves and those around them (Ecclesiastes 3:11; Romans 1:18-32), but no amount of prevarication or fabrication will ever remove the eternal reality of Hell.
There is no wisdom or understanding or counsel against the Lord. (Proverbs 21:30)
I. The Place
Hell is a literal place (e.g. Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28). It is a literal place where literal people suffer the torment of a literal fire (e.g. Luke 16:19-31). Its location is down (Proverbs 15:24; Isaiah 14:9; Ezekiel 31:15-17; 2 Peter 2:4). Its temperature is burning hot (Luke 16:24; Revelation 19:20). Its luminance is "outer darkness" (Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30), also called "the blackness of darkness" (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 13). Its size is so massive it is never filled to capacity (Proverbs 27:20), though masses of people are in it and numbers more are added continually (Matthew 7:13-14; Romans 1:18). Its smoke will ascend forever (Revelation 14:11). Its fire will never be quenched, and the worm there will never die (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43-46, 48).
Hell is the place where the vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22) will be on display before all of mankind (Isaiah 66:24) and before the holy angels and the Lord Himself (Revelation 14:10). It is where Christ will show His wrath and make His power known for all eternity (Romans 9:22; Revelation 20:10). Hell is to the glory of God (Psalm 96:7-13) and the utter destruction of the wicked (Psalm 92:5-7).
Hell is where the mockers are now mocked (Proverbs 1:26). The scoffers are now put to shame (Proverbs 3:35; 13:5). Murderers are now being tortured with perpetual death (Matthew 10:28; Revelation 21:8, "the second death"). Oppressors are now laid low (1 Samuel 2:7). Liars experience the reality that they have been lied to (Revelation 12:9). Kidnappers are now eternal captives (1 Timothy 1:10; Revelation 20:11-15). The rich suffer severe poverty (Proverbs 22:16; 28:22; Luke 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). The full are now hungry (Isaiah 65:13; Luke 6:25). The proud are rebuked (Psalm 119:21) and fully repaid (Psalm 31:23). The disobedient are punished (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). Cowards are now "utterly consumed with terror" (Psalm 73:18-19; Proverbs 10:24; Revelation 21:8). Those who laughed are now weeping and mourning (Isaiah 65:14; Luke 6:25). Those honored by men are now despised and lightly esteemed by God (Luke 6:26; Psalm 73:18-20; 1 Samuel 2:30/Proverbs 14:2), and will in the future be abhorred by all mankind (Isaiah 66:24; Daniel 12:2). Those who have wickedly dug a pit, are now cast down into the pit (Psalm 7:14-16; 9:15-17; Proverbs 26:27; 28:10 [Ecc.10:8]). Lovers of pleasure are now tormented with fire (2 Timothy 3:4; Revelation 21:8). Those who cursed are now cursed (Proverbs 20:20). Those who considered the cross foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) are now shown the shrewdness of God (2 Samuel 22:26-28). God indeed is not mocked. Men will reap what they have sown (Galatians 6:7-8).
To get to hell, the directions are quite simple and easy to follow. All one has to do is continue to sin (Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Romans 6:23; Revelation 21:8), which, without the Savior, is impossible to do otherwise (John 8:34-36). Actually, all it takes is one ungodly statement of "You fool!" to put one in "danger of hell fire" (Matthew 5:22). It takes very "little" to get to hell. The gate that leads to hell is wide and the way that leads to hell is broad (Matthew 7:13). Continue on the course you have followed from birth (Psalm 58:3), and you are sure to get there (Romans 2:6-9).
Quote
offline
Reply by danacainGOLD on July 8, 2008 at 12:38 PM
Songslinger, I feel sorry for you. Your view of a cruel angry God keeps you in bondage and fear.
You've taken all your scriptures out of context to fit your agenda and therefore nullified the Word of God for your own tradition.
This idea you have of hell as a place of torment comes from medieval times and wasn't an accepted belief by the Jews or the early church. It was later used by the church to scare people into conformity.
Revelation 20 is speaking of the DEVIL, THE BEAST, and the FALSE PROPHET, not of people. Go read the ENTIRE PASSAGE and not just take one verse to prove a point.
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Do you know why they will be tormented forever? Because they are not mortal.
Read on....
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
See the reference to the second death? When sinners are thrown into the fire they are DESTROYED, not tortured, because they aren't given eternal life. You see, you don't have eternal life now because someday you will die. You won't receive eternal life until after judgment. On then will you become immortal.
The idea of "immortal soul" is a false one. Your soul isn't immortal. It CAN BE, but as of this moment it is not. Remember, God threw Adam and Eve out of the Garden before they had a chance to eat of the tree of Life, so mankind missed out on immortality.
In order to have eternal torment in this place called hell, you'd have to have eternal life and the wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal life. If you take five minutes to actually study the scriptures, you'll see that I'm right.
This site breaks it down nicely. http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/hell.html
Do yourself a favor and check it out. God isn't a sadistic, petty tyrant who gets his rocks off torturing people for all eternity.
Those who reject God will suffer "DESTRUCTION", not TORMENT.
Quote
offline
Reply by danacainGOLD on July 8, 2008 at 12:46 PM
Murderers are now being tortured with perpetual death
The key word is PERPETUAL DEATH.
Get it? DEATH. You know nothing when you're dead. You're gone, finished, done.
but no amount of prevarication or fabrication will ever remove the eternal reality of Hell.
Hell, meaning death. as in the opposite of ETERNAL LIFE.
If you're dead you aren't alive, and if you're not alive you can't be tortured for all eternity can you?
and the utter destruction of the wicked (Psalm 92:5-7).
UTTER DESTRUCTION. Again, something that's DESTROYED UTTERLY no longer exists.
I'm going to quote now:
Compare Acts 2:27 with Psalm 16:10. It seems more logical to think of Christ in the grave instead of in a burning hell.
1 Corinthians 15:55 illustrates that "grave" is a proper reading for Hades. This verse is quoted from Hosea 13:14 in the Old Testament where we find the equivalent word Sheol (grave).
Hades is also used in Matthew 11:23; 16:18, Luke 10:23, and Revelation 1:18; 6:8. In Revelation 20:13-14, if one thinks of "hell" as death represented by the grave, it makes sense for hell to be cast into the lake of fire. After all, if "hell" itself is really a lake of fire, how can it be thrown into itself? This does not make any sense. Notice in 1 Corinthians 15:26 that death will be destroyed. What is represented by death? The grave!
The Bible does not teach a place of the conscious souls. The Greek Septuagint, which our Lord used when he read or quoted from the Old Testament, gives Hades as the exact equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol, and when the Savior, or his apostles, used the word, they meant the same as is meant in the Old Testament. Thus, the New Testament usage agrees exactly with the Old Testament. Literally, Hades means "death" or the "grave"; and figuratively, it means "destruction".
Quote
offline
Reply by danacainGOLD on July 8, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Songslinger, I pray your eyes of your heart are opened. I believe you really need to hear this message.
Quote
offline
Reply by danacainGOLD on July 8, 2008 at 2:02 PM
I think I know where the confusion comes from. The Bible makes several references to the fires of hell, but think about it; what does fire do? It DESTROYS!!! The only way you could have eternal torment in the fires of hell would be if you had eternal life...which we both agree you don't get unless you've accepted Christ.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Any reference to the "fires of hell" simply underscores the utter destruction of hell. When you are thrown into hell you will be utterly destroyed, not left alive to be tormented forever.
Psalms 92:7, "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"
Philippians 3:18-19, "...they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction..."
Psalms 37:20, "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 8, 2008 at 2:39 PM
With arduous work and reticence *THIS* is the God I chose to have NOTHING to do with ! This is NOT a loving God, and I will go further and add the description furnished is enough to make me think there's very little that deliniates Heaven from Hell because I don't wish to be in Heaven with this Adoph Hitler you are describing as God !
JMHO..
How can ANYONE believe this is a perfect, omnipotent, loving deity ? Look at the Ego of this God. He giveth, and than watches with a plan to torture those that experiment with the tools he supplied us with ? He gives us a mind to question, shows some individuals absolutely no empirical evidence yet is quick to burn us for not seeing what isn't shown to all ? This creature you describe as a God would fare as well as Sodom Husseine during a trial.. This is an unjust Deity, not a God of love..Instead, this is the reason some that need God stay far away from God !
Living our current life fearing such a tyrant IS IN FACT living in Hell ! I was there, I am still running after having escaped... Worse thing that can happen is I end up back there however the physical torture might be far easier to endure than the emotional and mental abuse that is bestowed upon children thru the introduction of the Tyrant God watching them with a grin while anxiously awaiting to take them from their mothers for "bad thoughts" or "human mistakes".
Sorry, I had to vent...LOL.. Hey, if that God works for some, far beit from me to say that's not the best God for them. I am going to boycott such a nasty creature.
This *IS* typical of the orthodox less educated phobia induced perspective however. It does damage to some. Others live in a shoebox afraid to look out of the cracks of light between the cover of the box, and the box..
Superstitious fear is a great way to keep individuals paying organized religion ! This God you have described is clearly a VERY strict, scornful/bitter egomaniacal andropausal male worse than Archie Bunker and as dangerous as the Tyrants we wish to never encounter...Why do you want this creature in your life ? Because you fear him so much that you've convinced yourself he loves you ? Irrational !
I also have to question (considering it's now 2008) if such a representation of "God" should no longer be allowed among certain organizations because how does telling children this differ from Abuse or perhaps even terrorism ? It's CRUEL ! Additionally presenting this type image of God justifies Atheism to any reasonable individual not afraid to think ! Once you strip away the shackles of fear that imprison one to such a god, one can clearly understand life is tough enough. What POSITIVES does this terrifying god add to ones current life ? Is it any wonder that some opt to "take the risk" and say, To hell with this type terrifying God !
Lastly, of course I DO NOT feel comfortable talking this way about something that I find detestable. Early childhood induced superstition (This type God as presented) has LONG LASTING traumatic affects on those exposed to such a God :( Yet I believe it to be a VERY important part of ones development and search for a Loving God to denounce such a Tyrant you present
Edited on July 8, 2008 at 3:06 PM Quote
Reply by hobo56GOLD on July 8, 2008 at 6:22 PM
how would you explain lazuraus and the rich man ? the rich man died and he could see lazuraus in paradise with father abraham there was a great void fixed between them the rich man didnt just quit excisting . the rich man was dead and was in hell he asked for water to quench his thirst he also asked if it be possible to allow him to warn his brothers of this place . he could see lazuraus in all his glory enjoying paradise . it will be a sad day if we miss heaven . when you die you can either live on in heaven with Jesus and our father . oh if it was that easy that when one dies and not have Jesus they just stop excisting thats the problem with todays watered down religions they dont preach hell fire and brimstone messages they dont want to preach it real. its easier to fill the pews with the watered down pat you on the back kind of teachings .lets not scare the folks . hell is real and theres no in between place we are a spirit and when our body dies we will live somewhere . the devil doesnt have eternal life either he is a spirit and he will be there also in hell and all his unholy spirits . enternal life is just that enternal life ,life in heaven anything else would be eternal damnation thats my view . i just pray i make it thru those heaven gates . true God is a loving God he gives us chance after chance to choose or refuse him but once we take that last breath than its judgement day . hitler is burning in hell right now he knows hell is real the monster murderers baby killers who havnt repented and asked for forgiveness are there too . oh i surley dont want to share my enternity with those monsters . there is hope in all this we must take and make our choices sure so we dont miss out on that day . todays preachers in many cases have been told not to scare the folks . preach the warm fuzzy message and people will keep coming back . how many tv preachers would be popular if they preached that if you dont get right your going to hell ? theres a time and place for warm messages but there is also a time for truth about where we will be when we die . we dont have to live in fear we can have blessed assurance in Jesus thats my thoughts on hell and heaven
Quote
Reply by scarlettohallGOLD on July 8, 2008 at 9:09 PM
Hobo, one question.
How do you know who is in hell? Did God tell you?
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 8, 2008 at 11:21 PM
I have no need to :) I don't take any of that to heart. Especially when there's so much going on TODAY in the here and now... I don't believe all I read, and I'm not smart enough to interpret metophors written years back by different generations of people correctly *assuming they mean much to begin with*, I find little interesting about the Bible, just quite a story to be honest. I'm a GOOD person, I won't kill a bug, I escort them outside, so if God will damn me because I've insulted his soured ego... screw him ! He doesn't deserve existing in my palace of peace where I'll be once I get out've hell. If the only way to God is thru some 2000 year old book, and having read much in the past, been needy, prayed, got down on my knees, I can honestly say I've done MY part..Let this stubborn God put something into our relationship too, this one-sided stuff just wasn't worth it considering the ego this God guy many told me about has !, and EVERYBODY that told me something contrary to another God believers thought regarding "what Gods wishes are" was VERY SURE they were correct btw, yet when it gets down to-You better believe or else- NO THANKS... Satan can't be all THAT bad compared to such an ill-willed God giving ultimatims to good people for what somebody did YEARS ago. This is not a God somebody like myself won't question, in fact, if I believed in a loving God, I'd think an omnicient, omnipotent, loving God would be VERY insulted at the old grouchy man/monster so many of you have reduced him to ! I'm questioning who some of the "sinners" may be.
If my intellect, and quest, and necessary grounds for defiance at this point become the loaded gun God shoots me with, well, he gave it to me with the intent on killing me with it in the first place, which is how I see all this ! I don't benefit from being God Fearing, having to go on a treasure hunt for a Deity that plays hide and go seek with his creations, seems goofy... I've lived too much of my life in Hell, and this God some of you describe makes Hell look like Disneyland compared to what Heaven must be like... I think many have it ass-backwards... I own a classic horror section of a video store (I bought out). Assuming I wish for fear, I have LOADS of movies I can pop into my VCR (yes I still live in the stone ages..LOL)..
No book is going to show me, or tell me who God is.. If there isn't a God that can be found beyond an ancient distorted book written by man, (and assuming without a bible I wouldn't know God exists) God really doesn't seem to care who does or doesn't believe, he makes little effort to reach to his creations... He's blaming me for Adam and Eve stuff ? and Stuff others did in the past ? WOW.... So God holds LONG grudges, and throws in the towel so I must make more of an effort to find him ? This is no GOD... This is a scorned grandpa you folks describe ! Just like in "The Jazz Singer", God rips his clothing saying "I have no more Kappy"... What a supreme being this is..LOL..I believe until *God* gives me a sign it's safe to assume there is no conscious God that communicates with us these days, if I have to look so hard to see "the light", there likely isn't a bulb that can do me much good assuming one exists at all... God might very well have existed a LONG time ago, he might exist today in some of you.. But why am I reading a story that's 2000 years old to find a God in the here and now that loves playing hide and go seek ? I just don't buy it.. A God that wants me to find him, a God that has the power and awareness most ascribe to him isn't going to send Kappy on a wild goose chase, and than to Hell holding me accountable for Some guy in the Garden of Eden YEARS ago.. That's just goofy. I've looked and looked and all I have is some T-shirt :)
Show me this God of Love... That I am receptive too.. That is something we ALL need in the world today.. I've gotten used to Hell, It's MUCH more peaceful up here than the religion and people I was exposed to down in that ugly place dyslexics call the path to Heaven. That path to Heaven was so cold and artificial a little heat and a few stabs with a pitchfork have since put some hair on my chest, and have gotten the blood flowing :)
Anyone have any marshmellows ?
Edited on July 8, 2008 at 11:32 PM Quote
Reply by scarlettohallGOLD on July 8, 2008 at 11:29 PM
Kappy, The God of love is not in a book. He's in me..He's in you..and others around us..just look around. He comes to us through others.
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 8, 2008 at 11:34 PM
Yep Scarlettohall, THAT sounds reasonable and rational, NOONE should refute that means of communicating a God of Love IMHO :) and I do just what you state in hopes of something coming together for me so I don't have to be old and lonely
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 8, 2008 at 11:39 PM
Some people just don't get it. The road to God (for a guy in his mid-50's recovering from a life of "God is going to kill you") isn't instucting him to follow route 666, the fastest route since Satan paved it. Some of these individuals ARE NOT describing "God". This could NOT be how God is !! Not the great Creator... This guy being described seems pretty imperfect, angry, and very stupid.
Just take this one phrase.
All knowing, loving God.
Do some of you realize the mockery you are making of such a God, the damage being done in presenting such a fear-based concept to children ??? Do you ? Certainly a perfect God would appoint MUCH more qualified individuals to speak on his behalf than those that represent him as a terrorist !
Might as well open a restaurant, erect a "Grand Opening" sign, and vent noxious excrement odors to make your business appear attractive :(
I don't understand why some of the Christians and Religious people that believe in a loving god aren't angry at some of these presentations of their "Loving God".. What a horrible presentation some are making of God.. I lived a life of this garbage, but still want to find a loving God... Have SOME understanding as to why there might be less religion in the world today... Many that are religious are driving those of us that need a God of love FAR away...
Edited on July 8, 2008 at 11:51 PM Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 9, 2008 at 12:32 AM
While I am currently Agnostic, I recognise the emotional need for "God" many have. Probably myself included in the not so distant future. Having been bullied with "God", I really take umbrage at seeing God used as a fear-inducing tool, or a "threat"..
This is why I got passionate (when I seldom do). If there is ONE thing I find wrong it's telling kids (I was one of those kids) "God will punish you" to discipline them. That and "The police are going to come and take you away"...
Some must realize a "loving God" wouldn't wish to kill people in a Hitleresque manner, meaning "You aren't one of the chosen/elite/ (use any similar term here) based solely on their awareness of such a transparent concept. If there's a heaven, ALL good people should go there, and their pets and foreign friends that have no belief in God etc.. Because assuming there is ONLY ONE true God, This God MUST be impartial to be a "good" loving God, not judge from his "ego" but be impartial enough to understand Good people get confused and shouldn't be killed because we hurt his feelings.. How babyish ..
I would want my children to go to some church (I suppose which church would depend on the faith of my wife, assuming the God was a loving God, I wouldn't care since I have no faith of my own however I still would wish for them to have some exposure to a God, and from there make their own decisions... BUT... I'd also want to make sure this SUPREME SUPERIOR parent is presented in a much much more reasonable manner than I could behave as a parent.. Meaning I have an excuse, I am a stupid human.. But God must be THE ultimate parent.. THAT I would make sure of.. A good parent doesn't kill his kids !
::Book of Kappy 1:45:::::
Edited on July 9, 2008 at 12:45 AM Quote
Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 9, 2008 at 12:39 AM
I think "Fear of God' is taken out of context.
True God has every right to condemn us all to hell but Jesus said that He did not come into this world to condemn it but to redeem it.
We equivocate the kind of fear we have when we're scared with the fear of the Lord. But the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
If we learn to fear God and that is to acknowledge Who He Is and His power and majesty then we will change the way we live.
It is not to say that we need to live in fear of being punished or cast into hell if we say or do the wrong thing.
Jesus died for the sinner and none of us are worthy of that gift, but God loves us so much that he offers it anyways.
notice I said "Offers" it is your choice to receive or not.
that does not sound like a mean God to me.
May I also add what is on my heart right now to say...
Often we see God much like we do our earthly father, in my case controlling, mean, impossible to please, critical etc. That is how I saw God when I was in my teens.
Why? because my own father justified everything he did by using God's name and he read the Bible to us, while drunk he preached to us.
Times have changed and now I have come to know the Lord and and beginning to understand His character.
It is nothing like His creation has made it to be.
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 9, 2008 at 12:48 AM
Well, I'd just like to respectfully say that it bothers me seeing "God and Condemn" in the same sentence. I just don't understand it. Just my opinion and based on NOTHING more :)
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 9, 2008 at 12:52 AM
OK, Hold on.. I just looked up the word "condemn", and I suppose in a certain sense meaning "To hold accountable for", I can understand.. I do not qualify to question the perspectives of Christianity not really understanding them.. I guess it depends on the basis of condemnation, and severity of punishment... I don't like "Condemn to Hell" for instance.. I personally wish the concept of Hell was abolished... again, JMHO...LOL
OK, sorry.. I typed out in a hypervigiliant manner not even having read your whole post prior to typing..LOL.. I guess I did get worked up... Shame on me. I guess I'm still bothered by the Orthodox concept of the God just standing there with a switch telling all of us to bend over and drop'm and next time won't be so pleasant...HAHAHA
Edited on July 9, 2008 at 12:56 AM Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 9, 2008 at 12:59 AM
OUCH ! You likely had it worse than I did in many ways :(
Yet you somehow transcended your experiences and went on despite them ! Good for you ! I think I'm still blaming what would benefit me for the lousy messengers.. IOW... In a sense, what I am doing is lashing towards a God when my anger would be towards your father for presenting him in perhaps an ill-fashion... I guess that is still immaturity on my part.
I think however, where you and I may disagree is the belief that "God has every right to condemn all of us to hell" in any sense. If God has every right to condemn all of us to Hell, hasn't God himself done something very wrong ? I know the bible says differently, however I think God has some accountability too. Each individual sentence should be directly commensurate with the INDIVIDUALS crime.. Not the crime of our ancestors. IMHO
Edited on July 9, 2008 at 1:06 AM Quote
Reply by BodacioushahasGOLD on July 9, 2008 at 2:11 AM
Condemnation should be viewed more like sentencing for a crime.
We are all sinners and we have all fallen short of the glory of God.
It is a complex idea because you have to try to comprehend free will and then an omniscient or all knowing God.
It will literally drive you insane trying to discern without the Spirit. This is a very spiritual matter and can't be logically thought through with the minimal understanding we have as humans.
We are spiritual beings. I have come to know this but still am learning, and suspect I will always have something to learn a goal to strive for until I die and all things are revealed.
I apologize if I am speaking in foreign terms it is just the way I communicate such things.
Every person is warned of their consequence so that justice can be served fairly.
The people were warned that their unrepentant hearts would fall onto their children and their children's children yet the peopel were stubborn and evil in their deeds and thumbed their nose at God and didn't repent.
so now God gets blamed?
it's a sad world we live in.
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 9, 2008 at 2:23 AM
I suppose what confuses me (given my limited understanding) and my understanding of Omniscient, Omnipotant, loving and forgiving is why the Onus of thousands of years ago is being placed on some of us today. If God is still around, isn't it time for another miracle to show those of us that don't understand Him he's real ? Why does God need spokesmen ? I suppose my question is, wouldn't it be reasonable that this supreme-being would transcend something as limiting as emotion ?
What perplexes me about so much of God belief is that at times he appears to have the weaknesses of a very imperfect human whose feelings are hurt, and harbors resentment refusing to let go of the past, yet even we imperfect humans learn we can't blame a whole race of people for what a few might've done ages ago... while still, God is credited as "perfection", or isn't he ? This gets tough for me to understand.
Look at it this way, Politicians and parents and MOST disciplinarians get rejected and flipped the bird quite often, but they still don't lose site of "doing the right thing", because they realize they are ABOVE those that have less understanding. Why isn't God like that ?
Edited on July 9, 2008 at 2:33 AM Quote
Reply by Songslinger on July 9, 2008 at 5:40 AM
I posted the first part of the fear of God because it is true and God is beyond awesome in His perfection and holy righteousness. This one is 'God is Love' I won't break it down and post it all, I am barely hanging on in my busy life. See, God is HOLY.......and that means He perfectly holds the attributes of all perfect goodness and power according to HIS OWN COUNSEL......this is His 'ball game' to make a very crude comparison. His power is beyond all thought, He keeps the protons, neutrons and electrons (and other particles, if that is what they are) in perfect harmony with great intense power and absolute knowledge and wisdom, with just His word........He creates out of nothing and holds existence in its form.
The Word of God is filled with extremely powerful and perplexing statements that cannot be brushed aside or reinterpreted to fit into a nice little boxy orthodox theological system. We should fall prostrate before Him in repentance, as it says in Proverbs 1, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. It is amazing He has allowed us to exist for the last 4,500 years after the flood, His will is to have many children experience His being for all eternity........and we can't brush aside the fact that He also has made vessels for the day of destruction.........look into this Word, God is love, and the devil has deceived the whole world into believing a 'metrosexual' Jesus who just overlooks and accepts all sin. He definitely provided and is the propitiation, and took the wrath of the Father (and Himself) for all sin for all men.
His sacrifice though, is not a 'license to sin' it was to absolutely do away with the legal punishment (which is eternal damnation) and to provide the pathway of spiritual power (Holy Spirit power) to overcome sin in the believer and actually live in accordance with God's holiness.
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (1 John 4:8)
God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. (1 John 4:16)
Most people do not know love, because they do not know God (Psalm 10:4; 14:1-3; Matthew 7:13-14), and are therefore incapable of loving in any kind of godly way (Jeremiah 13:23; Romans 3:10-18; 14:23; Titus 3:3). God is the defining factor in a proper understanding of what is love, because God is love. If you do not know God (Galatians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:8), you will not understand love, for the Lord is love. Therefore, if you do not understand (Ephesians 4:17-18), or you reject what is revealed in this report about God and love, it is indicative of your lost state (John 8:47; John 17:3; 1 John 4:6). May the Lord have mercy, and may you come to know the God of love.
I. God Is Patient (1 Corinthians 13:4).
In its first definition of love, 1 Corinthians 13:4 defines God (Love) as One who "suffers long" (NKJV). The Lord suffers? Yes, in His love, He suffers long. Jesus said,
I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! (Luke 12:49)
The Almighty Holy God loves justice (Psalm 37:28; 99:4) and hates those who do evil (Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 5:5-6; 11:5; 78:59; 106:40; Proverbs 6:16-19). "God is angry with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11), and if they do not repent,
He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready. He also prepares for Himself instruments of death; He makes His arrows into fiery shafts. (Psalm 7:12-13)
He prepares to destroy them. But, in the meantime, He suffers long with them and continues to make,
His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5:45).
He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, and vegetation for the service of man, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine that makes glad the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengthens man's heart. (Psalm 104:14-15)
These all wait for You, that You may give them their food in due season. What You give them they gather in; You open Your hand, they are filled with good. (Psalm 104:27-28)
God loves His enemies (Romans 5:8-10). He loves those whom He hates (Psalm 5:5-6; John 3:16; Romans 3:10-18). He is extremely patient towards evil men (e.g. Nehemiah 9:30). He has even been crushed by wicked men (Ezekiel 6:9). He suffers long with them (Romans 2:4), but not indefinitely.
You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust. (Psalm 104:29; see also Luke 16:19-31)
For man also does not know his time: Like fish taken in a cruel net, like birds caught in a snare, so the sons of men are snared in an evil time, when it falls suddenly upon them. (Ecclesiastes 9:12)
God is patient, but His patience has an end; and He chooses when that end will be.
Our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. (Psalm 115:3)
Finally, the Lord is particularly patient with believers, as 2 Peter 3:9 says.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9, NKJV; NAS "patient toward you")
God Is Love..........the rest of the post
Now I don't really know these guys who's stuff I've been posting........but what has struck me as good is the reluctance to box God into a rythmetized systemetized theological box and just let the Word mean what it says........we know in part, like seeing through a glass darkly.........but God is absolutely concrete on a lot of stuff that we can understand, like sin and hell and His Sovereignty and His love, judgement..........and Jesus our Lord who took away our sin..........if we believe and keep on believing till the end.....with evidence of His saving grace, the fruit of the Spirit. We are so easily deceived, we are told to examine ourselves to see if we are truly 'in the faith'.....a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.....you know, True Jesus salvation will rock your world, you will change.........sin will bother you deep down, you will be aware. It's like a light was switched on.......it's like you're 'sensitized' to everything both good and bad......you see in the spirit clearly, ........and satan will try to drag you back down into the mire and sometimes he succeeds but you repent and rise from the miry pit....and the only thing is Jesus's Word the Bible and seeing the deep things of God and understanding in your core He is Holy and coming, and you're His child, you feel His presence....but not always, as you struggle with your sin and letting Him have all of you......even the secret places.....He already knows all of you, it is good to surrender to the Lord Jesus and let Him reign.
I might sing a song now, but for sure I am fading away from this toy, and will probably go away forever soon
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 9, 2008 at 6:25 AM
You describe God initially as beyond perfection and righteousness. You state
"He perfectly holds the attributes of all perfect goodness and power according to HIS OWN COUNSEL......this is His 'ball game' to make a very crude comparison. His power is beyond all thought, He keeps the protons, neutrons and electrons (and other particles, if that is what they are) in perfect harmony with great intense power and absolute knowledge and wisdom, with just His word........He creates out of nothing and holds existence in its form.
The Word of God is filled with extremely powerful and perplexing statements"
You also state "God loves His enemies (Romans 5:8-10). He loves those whom He hates" you also state "God is patient, but His patience has an end; and He chooses when that end will be. Our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. (Psalm 115:3) Finally, the Lord is particularly patient with believers.
You state "True Jesus salvation will rock your world, you will change.........sin will bother you deep down, you will be aware. It's like a light was switched on".
and go on and on to describe a moody inconsistent old man by what appears to be bits and pieces that contradict themselves..
BUT, SIN BOTHERS me TODAY without Christ ! It bothers me DEEP DOWN ! (Without this God you describe or Christ), and when I see it, I address it ! I live by the rules towards OTHERS here on earth..
Yet this magnificent order and omnipotent supreme being that reigns control doesn't answer my calls. Guess he's too busy !
What bothers me, is when putting all you have typed together and trying to formulate this God you present based upon your quotes Songslinger, you've presented a schizy parent that the kids fear because he doesn't love them enough to communicate with them, or show them consistency in his behaviour.. You've presented essentially NOTHING that makes sense or shows ANYTHING more than the God YOU believe in is a self-absorbed egotistical moody emotionally distraught impatient old man who judges us today based on the behaviour of what happened thousands of years ago, and that's LUDICROUS ! Given the virtues and adjectives you first use to describe who God is. When reading from the beginning to end of your recent post, it appears that a person can show you quite a few contradictory statements side-by-side, and if the person states "Hey it's Gods word", you'll not question it... You aren't seeing how bizarre some of the analogies you've used in sequence are because you read it in the bible.
I'm not a robot.. I have to make some decisions based on my own.. If I open a page of the bible, and decypher what is stated as "Kaplan this is God using numerals to tell you jump off the Golden Gate Bridge", I'm not going to do it despite HOW convincing what I read appears !
I have been given a head to do at least SOME reasoning with ! In fact AS PRESENTED, you have effectively cancelled out any "Goodness" and "Love" your God has, by citing his emotionally weak behaviour, behaviour that even a MALE HUMAN should not display ! This God you present, is VERY VERY confused Songslinger ! In fact, he is so erratic in his nature and emotional constitution, that he's a danger and constant threat to those that don't escape his whimsical nature considering his unlimited power and knowledge. Where have you shown me "God loves me" ? Such TOTAL conditional love is much less than what one would accept from a human parent, because human parents even know if you lose patience you don't take it out on the kids, you REASON !
But the God you present is ABOVE human reason and can do whatever he so chooses, and you vindicate this by saying "because he's God" which is EXACTLY the problem I have with irrational God belief.. Not blind faith mind you HOWEVER if the blind faith is towards a tyrant such as Hitler ? This happens because people learn NEVER QUESTION, or are told this and accept it !!! The God you've presented is a moody tyrant and nothing beyond, and you accept that..You've presented total confusion lumped into "Because he's God, that's why"
You have displayed I God that keeps his children dancing by shooting their feet. But the kids aren't dancing because they LIKE to dance and have been shown the artform they can appreciate, they are dancing because they are in a constant state of panic and can't stay still..
Yet you believe you have presented a "God of Love" :( I wish DCF would do something about this parent you describe !
Edited on July 9, 2008 at 6:48 AM Quote
Reply by Songslinger on July 9, 2008 at 7:16 AM
He has answered you Steven, if you are truly bothered by your sin, you would know that God will not let it go with a whimsical attitude.
How can God keep all existence in this present form with all its perfect grandeur like stars a million times bigger than our sun, and other celestial bodies with power unfathomable in extent, in order and obeying the physical laws He has fashioned for matter.....How can He keep the multitude of creation in line while letting us (another, grander part of His creation) get away with sinning against His Holy character.....He would be unrighteous against His own self.
Christ is the new complete perfect once for all sacrifice and covenant.....no more bulls and goats (which couldn't for real take away sins).
The God I present is the the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as presented in the scriptures. You have to make a decision regarding Him, it is all written in the scriptures.
You can mock and call Him names and bring Him to your lowly way of reasoning, but He is not mocked, He will do His pleasure, which is right and just. Whatever a man sows, that will he reap.
God has laid out just who He is (holy, just, loving) and what He requires from His creation (holiness, justice, charity) this is the time of God's special favor, Jesus has come and told us to repent and to pray for our enemies and ask God to bless them and forgive them. This time will come to an end, then the angel will preach, then the end will come. Now while the Lord can still be found all should repent and be cleansed, born again by the Spirit of Jesus to eternal life.
Quote
Reply by Steven_Kaplan on July 9, 2008 at 8:15 AM
Perhaps you misunderstood what I was attempting to convey. I stated, "Sin bothers me TODAY, and I recognise sin" as an Agnostic individual; Both in myself, yet also in others, and I do the best I can (given my limited control )to deal with sin that to me is undesputably sin. I DON'T feel that my desire to keep a distance from God as you've presented him to me is "the Sin". I don't understand what you mean regarding "Yield to him", "Let him in", especially since according to you he created me. Assuming such, WHY did he cut me off ? Why did he create me and abandon me ? Assuming God showed himself to me, I would see HIM.. Yet what I see around me doesn't equate to the God you are describing what-so-ever.. The world around me doesn't show me what you are stating God is by any stretch of my imagination. Let alone faith.. There's just no correlation, no reasoning.. and why the game of hide and Go seek he plays ? At least if it was duck duck goose, I'd feel him smack me on the head..
Nah, we are peons compared to his celestial bodies and stars that are a million times larger that you believe he can keep in control today, how does he do it ? Does he scare them into proper orbit too ? He controls them, why is he doing such a rotten job keeping me in control ? I'm a lightweight. If God can keep big stars and matter together he can EASILY keep me righteous assuming I'm a grand part of his creation. This amazing God with such powers and knowledge seems to have other interests besides my well-being.
We must live in different milleniums, I can't experience something or consider it "recent" assuming it happened 1950 years before I was born. God MUST understand why I can't understand he exists.. Especially considering I don't have his phone number, yet he's got mine.
Regarding your statement:
"You can mock and call Him names and bring Him to your lowly way of reasoning, but He is not mocked, He will do His pleasure, which is right and just. Whatever a man sows, that will he reap."
God gave me this lowly way of reasoning, doesn't he remember ? I'm not calling him names. I haven't a clue what to call him, or where to face when I'm trying to call him. I'm mocking the messengers, afraid to have anything to do with the Deity they represent as "god", yet personally, I know no God, I never experienced anything