Thread for those who don't know what to believe

as a former Eucharistic Minister in the Roman Catholic faith, and later on a student of every major faith i could get information on, i know how you feel. The last thing i want to do is tell you what to believe, because in all my searching i found that no one can.

For me, the sort of questioning you are describing started a journey that led to one place only. Atheism. The fact that you feel like you're betraying your faith by looking into other faiths is testament to how divisive faith can be....take comfort in the fact that you are FAR from the only one in your situation....don't think that feeling uncomfortable should make you jump ship and join me either, this process may just serve to confirm your beliefs in the end. Good luck to you.

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I was once in a place similar to yours. I was perhaps agnostic. So I rolled up my sleeves and researched all religions. My criteria was that I would investigate each and set them aside once I was convinced they were not valid. It was easy enough to go through them all rather quickly, and there are many. But try as I might I could not do this with Christianity. That was odd, because I was raised Catholic yet came to a place of agnosticism or even atheism. I have been a Christian for many years now, and despite many tests of my faith am more than ever convinced this is the path.

We each must find out for ourselves. There is a lot at stake.

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I was drawn to Jesus as a teenager. Nobody is perfect and people who follow Jesus are not perfect either. The difference between Christians and those who do not believe, is that the Christian has an advocated with the Father through Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins.

I'm a news junkie. Having read the bible, I keep a watchful eye on what is happening in the world. With that in mind, I have to say that I feel stronger than ever that I am on the right road.

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LAngeloMysterioso wrote:

We each must find out for ourselves. There is a lot at stake.

Absolutely my friend. Regardless of where you came from or are going, the answers MUST come from within or you are only following a dogma.

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For me personally, I have alot of faith and I would rather have faith and live my life for God and find out at the end that I am wrong than to not believe in God and find out at the end that He exists. It's basically a personal relationship for me with God and I don't base my beliefs on what anyone else thinks.

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just my 2 cents

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Hi. :)

This is what I believe...

I definitely DON'T believe a lot of the bible. I don't believe it is God's divine word. I believe that much of it has a good message behind it, but that much of it was designed to keep people in line, especially women. I believe that Jesus was a person, and that he had a beautiful message, and that he was persecuted for it.

I believe that there is a God, and that he created the Universe. I believe that he had man in mind when he did so.

I believe that Religion - socialized, organized Religion, that is, is a necessary part of society. I feel that some people need it. That some people need to feel that there is some form of "ultimate" consequence in order to do the right thing. For some, I think that they need to feel that companionship with others.

Personally, having grown up going to a Methodist church most of my young life - up until about 13 or so - nothing about Christianity ever rang true to me.

Perhaps I look at things too logically.

I don't really believe in Heaven or Hell, but I do believe in Karma, or sort of what goes around comes around - you reap what you sow. If you are good to others, and you do what you know is right, then I feel you will ultimately be rewarded for it. If you are a selfish, person, who only thinks of themselves, then I think that will be returned to you in some fashion as well.

These are just my thoughts and opinions on the matter...

Edited on November 14, 2008 at 5:45 PM Quote

I dunno... I be therefore I is.

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Well, it's no secret that I believe what the Catholic church teaches. But..BUT..I do question things such as "karma".."reincarnation" to just name a couple. We (catholics) believe in purgatory....and I often wonder if reincarnation could be purgatory. Anyway, I think it's perfectly normal to question and I don't think that God would/will/does...look down on us for questioning and wondering.

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A long while ago, there was a medieval churchman who came up with a sound principle regarding how we ought to think about truths in the universe. That man was William of Ockham and what he said still applies: "Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity."

Ignoring this principle would render one open to believing in all kinds of fantastical notions.

Do we have hard evidence for this or that? If not, why believe?

As far as we know, life does end with death. In fact it is a tautology -- the word death means the end of life. Until there is proof to the contrary, that is what we have to come to terms with -- no matter what the holy books say. Ironically, the sooner we realise our mortality, the better prepared we are to make the most of this only life we shall ever have.

Edited on November 14, 2008 at 7:40 PM Quote

Mishamay when you have time jump over to the Witness/testimonies thread; I posted a story there that a friend sent to me; It is a very interesting read and pretty much sums it up for me.It's a bit long so I didn't want to bog down your thread since it's already posted. I make the most of my life now sg ; the only difference between us is I include God. There is no proof to many things in life that people believe, even non religious things; they take someone's word and by doing that they rely on faith imo.

Edited on November 14, 2008 at 7:31 PM Quote

But of course, faith is necessary. But it must be justified by reasonable evidence, or else, where do we draw the line? To take a simplistic example, I have utmost faith that the chair I am sitting on will not collapse on me suddenly. There is ample evidence for this "belief" -- chairs are generally sturdy objects, and I have sat on very many of them, and none has so far collapsed when I sat on them.

But faith that life continues after death or other typical religious notions? Those are very big leaps to take without sound evidence.

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I'll take my chances lol.. As I said before, I would rather believe in God and live my life accordingly and find out I'm wrong than to never have believed at all and find out I'm wrong and he indeed does exist. Worst case scenario, it has made me a better person in every aspect of my life and I hardly see any repercussions for it as I really don't mind if people think believing is not "reasonable" lol.. For me it is absolutely reasonable and at the end of the day that's all that really counts isn't it? ;)

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I sure hope ya chair doesn't collapse lolol

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Oh Mishamay I wasn't implying at all that anyone is Godless. that is not my place at all so I apologize if that is what you interpreted from what I said. I totally understand you being overwhelmed, you'll never know how MUCH I understand it and can relate. Some people feel church brings them closer to God through fellowship; I say whatever brings you closer is what's right. I don't believe if people don't go to church every weekend they're Godless. I have been thru alot and I sometimes think I'm Job's cousin lol... but I do think what I've been through has made me the person I am today.

Edited on November 14, 2008 at 7:52 PM Quote

p.s. I was answering sg when I said the only difference between us etc sorry I type like I think; just a run on sentence in my brain lolll

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kajun...

Beliefs have consequences, whether one realises it or not. Because it becomes part of your worldview and all your actions will be dependent on the way you view the world.

Religion divides, even as it unites. It spreads at least as much hatred and suspicion, as it does love.

That aside, isn't truth important for its own sake, regardless of what we want to believe?

And no, so far my faith in chairs has turned out to be perfectly justified. :))

Edited on November 14, 2008 at 7:56 PM Quote

sg,Depends on whose truth u speak of lol I don't just believe it, I feel it and I know it. That's something personal for me.
That being said, whatever consequences are thrown my way I will accept knowingly and I am aware that they are sure to come. I realize and grasp that fully.

Edited on November 14, 2008 at 8:04 PM Quote

I don't believe in organized religon. In some cases I find some to be almost cult like.

I do believe in God. I do believe that Jesus is my saviour and the only way to get to heaven is through him.

I also believe that Jesus is God. As I believe in the trinity.

In the Beginning was the Word..And the Word was with God ..And The Word is God... The Word is Jesus.

Only one way to be saved is to accept Jesus into your heart.. Repent. And believe he is your personal saviour and that he died for your sins.

I base all my faith on the Bible as it is my guide to what God wanted us to know. I take it literally in most cases with exception to Revelations. Where things are more symbolic.

This is what I believe. Not what I expect anyone else to believe. :)

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I can't really comment on the reincarnation aspect Mishamay but I would agree there is some relevance to what people refer to as Karma and "do unto others" just as I believe the saying "what goes around comes around" the same as "you reap what you sow".

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LadyDi....

If you had been born in Afghanistan, you would have probably believed that Muhammad is God's prophet. And you would have accepted that as the only fervent truth.

If you had been born in Mumbai, you would have sworn that reincarnation and karma are obvious, universal truths.

The challenge for all is to transcend the limitations of our geographical space and culture and seek to discover just what is the real.

What alternative is there but to go by the hard evidence?

But of course, anyone can believe anything at all, though as said, beliefs have important consequences that make us into the persons we are.

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As far as I know, belief in the trinity is a cornerstone doctrine in most Christian denominations, including Catholicism.

The Catholics were the original Christians, by the way. It was Martin Luther who started the schism in the churches a few centuries ago with his brave protestations against his brethren.

Ever since, the denominations have multiplied. Somewhat the same pattern is evident in most other religions, including Islam (the Shiites, the Shias, the Sufis...), the Buddhists (Mahayana, Theraveda...), the Hindus and so on. Diversity seems to be the common characteristic of religious belief. This is all too human.

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kajun...

We need to get clear about the nature of truth. First, is there such a thing as objective truth? Or is truth totally subjective? This is actually a harder question than it seems.

Rationally however, there seems to be little choice for us but to believe that knowledge (KNOWledge) is possible. Otherwise, nothing will make sense.

Once that is settled, we need to ask how do we distinguish the true from the false. Do we get it from the holy books, hearsay or elsewhere?

I tend to think that we have stumbled on a fairly reliable method of discerning the truths in the Universe. This is the method of science, of course: through experimentation and observation, we can, and have, indeed discovered many amazing facts about the Universe. Nothing comes close to Science as a way of harvesting the truths of the world.

Edited on November 14, 2008 at 8:41 PM Quote

sgwitness wrote:As far as I know, belief in the trinity is a cornerstone doctrine in most Christian denominations, including Catholicism.

The Catholics were the original Christians, by the way. It was Martin Luther who started the schism in the churches a few centuries ago with his brave protestations against his brethren.

Ever since, the denominations have multiplied. Somewhat the same pattern is evident in most other religions, including Islam (the Shiites, the Shias, the Sufis...), the Buddhists (Mahayana, Theraveda...), the Hindus and so on. Diversity seems to be the common characteristic of religious belief. This is all too human.

I would have to disagree with you on the Catholics being the original Christians.. The original Christians are the people who believed that Jesus was Lord.. Whether they be Jew or Gentile. :) Goes way back to biblical times. Before the Catholic church was started.

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Whether believing in the bible is what you call subjective truth or not it's what I believe. What I can tell you is an absolute unequivocal truth is that no one will ever make me think otherwise this I am sure of. I have never really felt the need to explain my beliefs for they are simply that ? mine :) and I'm totally fine with others not believing; that is certainly their choice; again, free will. I don't need to be "proven to" that God exists. I stand on faith; and even if I was the only one left standing in the end; so be it I would stand alone:) The alternative to that is not believing that there is mercy and goodness and forgiveness that comes from God through his son Jesus and I don't subscribe to that.That's just me sg, I can't "prove" it to you.

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kajun...

Oh, I am not trying to impose anything on anyone. Just having a conversation here. Of course, as said, anyone is free to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

Just a (very) tiny word of caution about "no one will ever make me think otherwise..."

An open mind is surely better than a closed one, no?

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LadyDi...

I am not the one to debate on the niceties of Church history, but for sure, the Catholics preceded the Protestants, and the latter were actually the breakaway groups from Rome.

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Oh I know that sg :) I don't think you're trying to impose anything; simply stating my take on things. No caution needed; I stand by what I said, no one will ever make me think otherwise. I am openminded to a certain degree; however, not when it comes to Jesus being my Lord and Saviour;)

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Are you referring to the dead sea scrolls that were found in the caves of Qumran Mishamay? I found these two sites if so :
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http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html
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http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/article1.htm

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Mishamay wrote:There was supposed to be this scroll found apparently written by Jesus that the Catholic Church rejected, I forget what it was called, but it had said on it something to the effect that God is not found inside churches but inside of us all.

Anyone know what the heck I'm talking about?

Yes I know what the heck you are talking about LOL

And yes God can be found any place.. In all of us as a body of believers in Him.

Edited on November 14, 2008 at 10:20 PM Quote

Mishamay wrote:

UncleDave wrote:as a former Eucharistic Minister in the Roman Catholic faith, and later on a student of every major faith i could get information on, i know how you feel. The last thing i want to do is tell you what to believe, because in all my searching i found that no one can.

For me, the sort of questioning you are describing started a journey that led to one place only. Atheism. The fact that you feel like you're betraying your faith by looking into other faiths is testament to how divisive faith can be....take comfort in the fact that you are FAR from the only one in your situation....don't think that feeling uncomfortable should make you jump ship and join me either, this process may just serve to confirm your beliefs in the end. Good luck to you.

the atheism thing just seems such a lonely end to me, but better than worrying about "burning in hell for eternity" if you're wrong type deal. it's more nerve-wracking to be undecided lol

because i do believe in heaven and hell.. the whole shebang

lonely? i feel you, i really do. but i'm looking at this debate....and looking around me in this life....and wondering how anyone could feel like there's a sense of loneliness in 6 billion souls at any given time all striving for the same end. happiness. that to me is FAR from lonely.....what used to make me feel lonely was the thought of 6 billion souls all striving for the attention of an outside 'godhead' that obviously had no problem with an incredible level of competition worshipwise....

i feel very un-lonely. very........and this took no 'god'. Heaven, Hell. reward, condemnation. lil bit like life? yeah. interesting thing is? i really do think highly of Jesus....he tried to erase that bad old punisher 'god' of the old testament....with his acts, words and death if all accounts be true....i'm down with that...just like i'm down with Dawkins and the 'who created god, then'.....

Edited on November 14, 2008 at 10:33 PM Quote

The who created god question is a very good one with an obvious answer, actually.

And the answer is.... :))

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sgwitness wrote:kajun...

We need to get clear about the nature of truth. First, is there such a thing as objective truth? Or is truth totally subjective? This is actually a harder question than it seems.

Rationally however, there seems to be little choice for us but to believe that knowledge (KNOWledge) is possible. Otherwise, nothing will make sense.

Once that is settled, we need to ask how do we distinguish the true from the false. Do we get it from the holy books, hearsay or elsewhere?

I tend to think that we have stumbled on a fairly reliable method of discerning the truths in the Universe. This is the method of science, of course: through experimentation and observation, we can, and have, indeed discovered many amazing facts about the Universe. Nothing comes close to Science as a way of harvesting the truths of the world.

man i could listen to you reveal that kind of truth all day long.....enough about monkeys typing hamlet.....why are THEY social....why is every predatory species not cannibalistic? We inherently know it's better to earn favor and exist in a group setting than to be alone. Morals and intelligence and DNA....not mutually exclusive.....i'm not saying pre-historic society was all paradise lost....but was it worse? doubtfull, or we wouldn't be here having this intelligent debate.

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sgwitness wrote:The who created god question is a very good one with an obvious answer, actually.

And the answer is.... :))

oh maaaaaaaaaan.....:)))) nuff said....

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and before anyone jumps me about it...yes....i believe in faith....otherwise i'd have no faith that there is only science....WHY do i have faith in science? because of a vast compiling of evidence by many people who did not agree with each other. or like each other.

in religion they call this ecumenism, and i have yet to see any results from it.

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Mishamay wrote:There was supposed to be this scroll found apparently written by Jesus that the Catholic Church rejected, I forget what it was called, but it had said on it something to the effect that God is not found inside churches but inside of us all.

Anyone know what the heck I'm talking about?

God IS found inside all of us and the church DOES teach us that. Can you point me to this scroll? I've never heard of such a thing.

edited to add....Evil can be found within us as well.

Edited on November 15, 2008 at 9:47 AM Quote

Jesus drew a line in the sand. The New Testament reveals that Jesus is God in human flesh. Jesus Himself said this, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me." Jesus also said, "I and My Father are One." Also in many other verses, Jesus makes it very clear that He is God incarnate.

What does that mean to us? Simply this: Jesus is either who He claimed to be, that is, God. Or, He is a liar and a lunatic. But, He left absolutely no room to say things like 'he was a good man, a wonderful teacher, etc.' A good man would not lie to this extent. A good man would not deceive his followers into beliving that he would rise from the dead and countless other things.

I always find it amusing when people say Jesus is a good man, a beautiful and compassionate person. Like I said, He is either God in human flesh who died willingly on the cross to pay humanity's sin debt so that we, by placing our faith in Him as our Savior, can have salvation and eventually join Him in Heaven, or he is a charlatan. Every person must decide for herself/himself.

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It was suggested to me a few years ago to try this quiz on this website Beliefnet.com. You may be surprised about the outcome. This website is not connected to any religion-has info on all of them. Its nice to explore sometimes.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Quizzes/BeliefOMatic.aspx

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Blaze....

This is the fallacy of the false dilemma. J need not be a charlatan or god's son. He could be non-existent, or an ordinary person whose life account was distorted or.....

Edited on November 15, 2008 at 11:30 AM Quote

Ohh..ok.

There is no "lost Gospel of Jesus". That was made up.

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